Will a low battry keep an XS11 from starting?

[Mashermoto]

While I've been out in the Man Cave I see that you guys have been busy doing some analysis...excellent

Here is what I have to report.

I started taking some voltage readings per Larry's post and I got some wacked out results I placed the meter across the battery terminals and cranked it over. Without the spark plugs in I started with 13.4v and that dropped to 11.9v. I installed the spark plugs and noted that I had 13.9v with the key off. Turning the key on dropped it to 13.5v and cranking the engine dropped it to 8v and continued to drop I've noticed I get a steady voltage drop as soon as I turn the key on. Plugs in or out doesn't matter...I just didn't notice it until after the plugs were installed.

Next I placed the meter across the positive battery terminal and starter cable lug. I got a total voltage loss...it went down to zero

Next I placed the meter across the positive battery terminal and the starter side of the starter solenoid. Again total voltage loss

So, I tried to open up the solenoid but couldn't get it to come apart. I got to seperate just enough to see a little inside, but it felt like it wasn't meant to look inside any farther. So I bolted it back up, installed it, and it still worked.

So next I removed the starter.



I cleaned it up and checked the brushes. They look fine and have plenty of life left.



Everything fit back OK. I also checked each winding for shorts and didn't find any. No problem with the starter lug insulation and case.



I cleaned up the mechanical end and bolted it all back, but didn't perform any better than before



I tried a different test on the solenoid. I removed the starter cable and placed the meter across the solenoid starter side lug and negative cable. I hit the starter button and recorded a 3.5 volt drop However after a couple of time of doing that the solenoid stuck in the off position.

So we will find out if the solenoid was a problem when a new one arrives

I looked up my receipts and see that I bought the battery in March 2009...so it is about 11 months old and set unused untill now. And we had two bitter freezing storms that lasted for several weeks this winter...no doubt an effect of global warming So I can't eliminate that the issue is a good battery gone bad

I still have to check out the ground connections, and once I get a replacement solenoid I can try that suggestion to disconnect the negative cable and jump it from the truck battery.

BTW, I don't think the engine is so tight that it is preventing it from turning over. It turns over fairly normal with the spark plugs out, but slows down to about one cylinder per second with the spark plugs in

So maybe it's a bad solenoid and bad battery. I guess I could see if one of the auto parts stores can do a stress test on a battery that small

Does this open up any new ideas

[79XS11F]

Also if you took the mechanical timing advance apart to service it you can get the timing 180 degrees off if the reluctor is put back on in the wrong position. if you didn't do that then coils may be hooked up reversed as stated.
Rob

[Mashermoto]

Yep, I had the ignition apart. Can you expand on the correct installation...or how I can tell if they are 180 out?

I did have to replace the coils, but each wire is marked for it's cylinder location and the wires are color coded. I don't think I got any of that wrong, but will check.

[79XS11F]

Yep, I had the ignition apart. Can you expand on the correct installation...or how I can tell if they are 180 out?

I did have to replace the coils, but each wire is marked for it's cylinder location and the wires are color coded. I don't think I got any of that wrong, but will check.

If you disassembled the reluctor it must be put back on in the same position as it was when it was removed. If I am not mistaken, the fin on the reluctor need to be on the same side as the notch on the back side of the bob weight plate.
Rob

[DiverRay]

The ignition coils are NOT a problem, as they are fired from the pick-up coils. The wires for the coils will both go to the bottom of the crank, so that should be OK unless the PU coil wires are on the TOP of the crank. The timing plate is used for adjust the cam chain, and checking the timing once the engine is running. IF it's 180 out, the bike should still fire correctly. If the pick up coils are firing the wrong coils, THEN you have a problem. If you are not sure, you CAN revers the blue and gray wires at the ignition coils.

[79XS11F]

I think he's suggesting that he has perhaps had the reluctor base plate with its bob weighs off the engine and taken apart. It would be difficult to fully install the pick up coil mounting plate up side down. I don't even think there's enough wire to do that and have the wiring come out at the bottom of the casing is there.
Rob

[Larrym]

Curiouser and Curiouser...

Said Alice as she found herself at the bottom of the rabbit hole...

I started taking some voltage readings per Larry's post and I got some wacked out results I placed the meter across the battery terminals and cranked it over. Without the spark plugs in I started with 13.4v and that dropped to 11.9v. I installed the spark plugs and noted that I had 13.9v with the key off. Turning the key on dropped it to 13.5v and cranking the engine dropped it to 8v and continued to drop I've noticed I get a steady voltage drop as soon as I turn the key on. Plugs in or out doesn't matter...I just didn't notice it until after the plugs were installed.

It's normal for the battery to drop down slowly when a light load is connected/operating. The resting voltage of a "new" battery should be around 12.6-12.7 volts. If you turn off the load or disconnect the battery it would be nice to see the measured voltage climb back up to the original voltage or within .1 Volts.

JAT the headlight doesn't turn on and stay on when you turn on the ignition, does it? That might explain a rapid drop in the non-running voltage readings.

The standard "load test" of the battery/starter is that the voltage doesn't drop below 9.6 Volts while drawing X amps for Y seconds. If your Battery dropped below the 9.6 Volts after being fresh from the charger then it's likely that those that have called the battery as the culprit are winners of the betting pool.

You can take the battery to the parts store and have it tested of course. But the best test is to substitute a REAL Whoop-azz battery in the place of the "suspect" battery and see if the same wimpy cranking is reproduced. (Here I see images of jumper cables going to your truck and huge alligator clips on your positive bike cable and the negative clamped on the bike engine. While some may find that image offensive...I say just be sure to make the connection to your bike engine last one on and the first one you take off...)

Next I placed the meter across the positive battery terminal and starter cable lug. I got a total voltage loss...it went down to zero

Um...uh. We need to confirm something here. If you had the meter leads placed as you describe, the meter set to read DC volts, you cranked the starter, and read ZERO Volts then it's a good thing. That means that there isn't a voltage drop/resistance between these two points. If there were resistance/problems then the meter would have read something-something Volts and then you'd know that you'd found a bottleneck in the current flow.

Next I placed the meter across the positive battery terminal and the starter side of the starter solenoid. Again total voltage loss

Sorta similar to prior paragraph. Blah..Blah. If you read ZERO DC Volts then look elsewhere. I know that most times we panic when the meter doesn't read anything but that's just one of the many ways a meter can be used. In this case the meter is the proverbial canary in the gold mine and if it reads anything then there's a problem. Totally Confusing yet true..

Thanks for the sweet pic of the inside of the starter. (drool...) If you ever have to go in that far again then I'd suggest that you cut a strip of 1500 grit carbide sandpaper in section about as wide as the commutator and 6 inches long. Sorta hold the paper by your fingertips and place the paper around the commutator and do a "shoe-shine" back and forth action while rotating to new sections. Really removes any carbon and also prolongs the life of the brushes by smoothing out the copper surfaces.

It totally sucks that you don't have the one piece of test equipment that could tell you just how much current (AMPS) are going through those wires: an inductive ammeter. Could provide the way to tell if the starter is drawing too much or if the battery is just not giving the amps to make things spin. Mine stays in the toolbox forgotten until a situation like yours comes along.I don't go into any starting/charging problem without it cause without it I end up not really knowing what's going on and have to GUESS which part is the problem.



Costs less than ten bucks....IIRC

Napa has a version too.

Thanks for the update and allowing us to live vicariously in your cave.

[Larrym]

Inductive Ammeter

Emphasis on the IF in IIRC.

Still less than $20 here:

http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdbatt07.html

.

[crazy steve]

It totally sucks that you don't have the one piece of test equipment that could tell you just how much current (AMPS) are going through those wires: an inductive ammeter...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know/has checked what these starters actually draw? Most automotive starters are in the 200 to 250 amp range, my SWAG for this would be in the 75-100 amp area....

'78E original owner

[Ivan]

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If the battery drops to 8V under load its a bad battery. 9notice the period?)

If something were taking enough amperage to drop the battery that much and its a good battery, wires will start smoking and things will start catching fire.

Swap the battery for new and forget about the starter and connections. They are good if the voltage at the battery terminals is dropping.

Also, if you check grount to starter side of the solenoid and the starter isn't turning, it will read close to zero. That is normal. If it cranks good, it should read a reduced voltage. awith that handy law that Mr. Ohm created, a little math will tell you how much your starter has when turning. Alas, I digress.

This is following the classic dead battery symptoms to a T.

[XJOK2PLAY]

You guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If the battery drops to 8V under load its a bad battery. 9notice the period?)

If something were taking enough amperage to drop the battery that much and its a good battery, wires will start smoking and things will start catching fire.

Swap the battery for new and forget about the starter and connections. They are good if the voltage at the battery terminals is dropping.

Also, if you check grount to starter side of the solenoid and the starter isn't turning, it will read close to zero. That is normal. If it cranks good, it should read a reduced voltage. awith that handy law that Mr. Ohm created, a little math will tell you how much your starter has when turning. Alas, I digress.

This is following the classic dead battery symptoms to a T.

+1 w/ Ivan. Sounds like a battery that won't pass the load test. If the TCI isn't getting 12 volts, it's not gonna start. Sounds to me like it's nowhere even close.
Also sounds like another AGM battery that's not proving out.

[Mashermoto]

I'm on my lunch hour and tried to get the battery stress checked at an auto store. Found out the Partsnmore battery is not marked as to the cold crank hour rating that has to be know to do the test. So I sent a request to partsnmore tech support.

I would just get another battery and find out for sure...but Partnmore cost is $80 and auto stores are $90 I can't just go buying at those prices on a whim

BTW, if I have to get a new battery, are the AGM batteries recommended? I started buying them because I hated messing with acid and water refills. Everything I read says they are better

[daveyg]

+1 on the bad battery incling. The solenoid stopped probably because of the drain on the battery. I figure that the AGM batteries are just as good, but no better nor worse than the lead acid type. They still require a warm shop to be stored in, and die if left on bare concrete. And not to mention that the Yamaha stealership I worked for recieved bikes/ATVs in crates, and the batteries were shipped with the vehicle, some came equipped with an AGM type, while others came, needed the batteries filled, and then charged. However the convenience of the AGM batteries still necessitated some that showed up from the factory reading a voltage drop, about 10% of them to be more exact. These would not recharge, and we would end up just throwwing them out and putting in new. I'll stick with the lead acid as long as the tree huggers in power cannot stop me.

[Ivan]

AGM batteries just have the acid soaked up in fiberglass mat which keeps the plates from warping intoeach other and makes them more vibration resistant ans somewhat more tolerant to freeze warpage. The problem with any lead acid battery is that at low charge levels they freeze, sulfate, and self discharge over time. If they just sit they die.

The bare concrete is only aplicable if you have enough wet crud on the battery it can actually find a path to the floor to discharge. If the battery is clean it won't happen. If its that dirty, chances are that it will discharge from the acid soaked gunk coating between the posts. Unless of course you have a battery old enough to have a rubber casing instead of plastic. But that was 1920s stuff.

Don't go to a dealer, parts store, or other place that will charge you double. measure the physical dimensions of the battery and hit Walmart for a lawnmower battery that will fit. Everyone knows motorcyclists are made of money and people who have riding lawn mowers are cheap bastards that only survive on a $12 social security check each month. Get my drift? I picked up my battery for $30 and it has survived two winters and still goes strong.

[vedgar]

battry state at rest

2.1v per cell. battery should normally be 12.6v. Not 13 after the surface charge is depleted.