A few problems... Take your pick if you can help.

[knightops]

Hey guys,
I am a newbie here, and to the XS bikes. I bought a 1980 XS850 midnight special for 300 bucks and took it down to the frame. While I was doing that, I turned my eyes over to Craigslist and found a $600 XS1100 Special. I got it home and started working on it. The carb boots look worn and I do have a slight vacuum leak (carb cleaner sprayed on them increases RPM slighty.) I took apart the carbs and cleaned them. I didn't have much experience with carbs, but they looked pretty good from what I could tell. I threw some carb cleaner on them and put them back in. Started the bike up and it idles nice, but I have a very fast ticking sound in the top end. From going over the posts and searching, it sounds like I am going to have some fun with valve clearance. I am not too intimidated by that, but my question is with the white smoke that comes from the engine case where the header gasket is. I only get it when I throttle up to about 4K RPM and higher. The higher I go, the more white smoke I get. The white smoke comes out of the engine where the header gasket is directly in front of cyclinder 1 and out of the 1 & 2 cylinder exhaust. After I release the throttle, I get a quick puff of black smoke out of the exhaust. I plan on getting some Seafoam tomorrow and adding it to my gas and oil. I will be doing a complete oil change after running the Seafoam through it tomorrow. I am not as concerned with the smoke out of the exhaust as I am with it coming out of my engine case. Do I need to replace the head gasket? Also, it is kind of difficult to tell whether the white smoke is coming from the head gasket or the section directly beneath it (I don't know what this gasket would be called.) My other problem is that when I start off in 1st gear, the bike kind of pauses for a second after I apply throttle with clutch completely out and then catches. Once it catches, I don't have any more problems with it while riding in first gear, but I am not doing that for very long. I do not know whether this is the clutch or the transmission. The PO says that this bike had the dreaded first gear problem, but that it was fixed (he said the guy even flipped the entire bike over to do it.) I am in Orange County, CA, so if anyone wants to come over and ride it to let me know what it might be I would appreciate it. Please let me know if I can provide any other useful Information. Thank you guys.

P.S. The bike sat for about 9 months before I got it with no oil from what the PO said.

[Elevener]

Hey guys,
I am a newbie here, and to the XS bikes. I bought a 1980 XS850 midnight special for 300 bucks and took it down to the frame. While I was doing that, I turned my eyes over to Craigslist and found a $600 XS1100 Special. I got it home and started working on it.

The carb boots look worn and I do have a slight vacuum leak (carb cleaner sprayed on them increases RPM slighty.) I took apart the carbs and cleaned them. I didn't have much experience with carbs, but they looked pretty good from what I could tell. I threw some carb cleaner on them and put them back in. Started the bike up and it idles nice, but I have a very fast ticking sound in the top end.

From going over the posts and searching, it sounds like I am going to have some fun with valve clearance. I am not too intimidated by that, but my question is with the white smoke that comes from the engine case where the header gasket is. I only get it when I throttle up to about 4K RPM and higher. The higher I go, the more white smoke I get. The white smoke comes out of the engine where the header gasket is directly in front of cyclinder 1 and out of the 1 & 2 cylinder exhaust.

After I release the throttle, I get a quick puff of black smoke out of the exhaust. I plan on getting some Seafoam tomorrow and adding it to my gas and oil. I will be doing a complete oil change after running the Seafoam through it tomorrow. I am not as concerned with the smoke out of the exhaust as I am with it coming out of my engine case. Do I need to replace the head gasket? Also, it is kind of difficult to tell whether the white smoke is coming from the head gasket or the section directly beneath it (I don't know what this gasket would be called.)

My other problem is that when I start off in 1st gear, the bike kind of pauses for a second after I apply throttle with clutch completely out and then catches. Once it catches, I don't have any more problems with it while riding in first gear, but I am not doing that for very long. I do not know whether this is the clutch or the transmission. The PO says that this bike had the dreaded first gear problem, but that it was fixed (he said the guy even flipped the entire bike over to do it.)

I am in Orange County, CA, so if anyone wants to come over and ride it to let me know what it might be I would appreciate it. Please let me know if I can provide any other useful Information. Thank you guys.

P.S. The bike sat for about 9 months before I got it with no oil from what the PO said.

I dont have the answers but now others can read it easier.

[trbig]

Wow, Elevener... I hope you asked permission before doing that. Pretty tacky if not...


As for the problem, it sounds to me like an exhaust gasket leak. That will give you ticking sounds also. Exhaust gaskets are cheap and you can even double them up in there if you want, or find that one isn't working. A compression check would tell you if the head gasket is leaking though.

The black smoke on decel is an indication that the valve guides are getting some wear. White smoke... will probably go away after you run it a bit.


Tod

[CatatonicBug]

Welcome to the forum! I agree that the first thing you should do is replace the exhaust gasket. If they don't seal, you will get some really strange noises. You mentioned the "header garket" and a "head gasket". Is it leaking smoke from the head (engine block), or the header (exhaust pipe)? White smoke is usually indicative of burning oil where it shouldn't be. This is often caused by a leaky piston ring. Seafoam in the oil may help that, so let us know how that goes. Just remember not to RIDE it with Seafoam in the oil.

The carb boots may look worn, but they are double-walled, so unless the inner wall is cracked, they should still work. You can re-seal them against the engine to help with the leak. A little RTV or even an old Ford thermostat gasket ('82 mustang works, IIRC). The factory didn't install gaskets on them, so don't be surprised if you don't find one in there when you take them off.

It looks like you've got a pretty good handle on things already, since you've already taken the 850 apart. Take your time, and read everything you can get your hands on. Don't let yourself get frustrated, because everything you are dealing with has been dealt with by someone here on this site.

Good luck, and be sure to post some pictures! We like to see what were talking about!

[Bigfoot]

If it has been sitting for awhile, it will probably smoke quite a bit. It took mine a bit to clear up, but it did. I wouldn't worry too much about that until you run it a bit and see if it clears up.

As far as seafoam in the oil, some here are for it, some are against. The directions on the can claim that it is perfectly fine and if you are going to do it, just follow the directions.

A good way to test the carb boots, with the bike running, spray some wd-40 on the carb boots. If the RPM's change, then you have a leak. If not, then they are fine.

If the clutch is sticking, it may free itself up after it has been used some. Could just be a little sticky. Also, how is the clutch cable. It may need lubed.

[Elevener]

Wow, Elevener... I hope you asked permission before doing that. Pretty tacky if not...


Tod

Ask permission? Never even dawned on me. I was just making it easier for others to read. Blocks of text are kinda hard to follow. I got lost in the middle of it so in my eyes was just helping in the way I could.

Sorry knightops if you are offended.

[Larrym]

3 plus 1 More!!

So you saw that extra cylinder and had to say yes? Me too!

Funny...everytime I've ever sprayed carb cleaner into a carb the engine slows down. Had to stop spraying before it killed the engine entirely. Like Catatonic Bug says, the boots are double walled and the "goo-it-up-for-now" process works. (Then of course you order a new set of boots and move on to the next item on the list...)

My bike sat for years before I got to it and so I had some valve seal problems at first. They did clear up within 100 miles. Now it's not a problem.

These bikes really "klunk" when they go into gear. (hearsay..) Mine really does the klunk when I put it into gear before I've warmed the bike up. After it's been ridden a while and up to operating temperature the klunk goes away. I still tend to wait for a 5-count with the clutch lever pulled in before I shift into first. Hopefully if the problem is with the clutch then riding it will settle things out. Or you can adjust the clutch per the repair manual. (Both the Lever and the Pushrod...)

Does the "catching 1'st gear" happen every time? Does it happen in any other gear? Does it happen when your are downshifting from 2'nd gear into 1'st or only when you start off the line from a standing stop?

You might want to put the bike on its centerstand with it in 1'st gear and see how much "back-and-forth/play/rotation" you have in the rear wheel. Try this in all the gears. There shouldn't be a big difference between any of them. If there's a lot of play in all the gears then I'd suspect a drive line issue. (relatively easy to find and replace a driveline..)

Note: the site here is misbehaving today with slow loading and "connection" failures. They'll iron it out.

[Bigfoot]

Sorry, guess I missed the line where you tested the carb boots. Sounds like you do have a leak, you can possibly seal them but I would replace them when you have the funds. Unfortunately, they are not cheap.

[knightops]

OK guys....Add this one to the list.

Hey Elevener,
Thanks for ironing that long paragraph out for me. As for everyone else, this was my day in a nut shell. So I went to the store and grabbed some Seafoam and added it into the tank per the instructions. I had approximately 3 gallons of fuel, so I added approximately 3 ounces to the gas tank. I added about 1/3rd of the can to the oil. I ran it for about an hour on the center-stand with a nice fan in front of it before shutting it down. I did not notice much of an increase in white smoke, which I thought was supposed to accompany Seafoam.

So I was getting ready for my oil change (which I completed with no problems) when I noticed a few drops of oil coming out of the cam chain tensioner. I looked up this curious little nipple and found that it could be adjusted....Imagine my excitement. I read the instructions, but I somehow managed to strip the inside threads (I know, I know.) I was able to tap it successfully though. I should mention that I was lazy and decided that instead of pulling the spark plugs, I just put it into 5th and used the rear wheel to turn the engine (this turned out to be a bad idea for me.)

I must have done something wrong, because everytime I completed the procedure for cam chain adjustment, the bike would begin to try and start and then lock up. Finally, after about the 4th try (I know) I pulled the spark plugs and did it the right way. After doing it the correct way, the start sequence sounds great (if that makes any sense), but the engine will not start.

The cylinders are moving, I pulled the #1 spark plug and I can even see the valve ports (pardon the terminology) moving. It was at this time that I remembered something I had read on this forum... if the cylinders turn and the fuel is working, but no power then that means that if I pull the spark plug it should be wet with fuel. The spark plugs were bone dry. Keep in mind this is after I used Seafoam.

What does boy genius do? Well after making sure the floats have fuel in them, I think I am being all slick and figure that if the carbs don't want to give the engine gas, I will. So I pull the spark plugs and pour just a little gas (ok, maybe a little too much) in each of the cylinders. I hit the start button and after about 1 and a half seconds......BOOM.BOOM. (That is 2 very distinct and quick booms... with a small flame coming out of both exhaust.) After the two shot gun shells going off in my engine, it immediately shuts off (possibly because I nearly crapped myself and let go of the start button.)

So what does all of this mean? I am lost as to why the fuel decides it doesn't want to cooperate all of the sudden. Or is my diagnosis wrong? I digress from my original post due to the fact that I can't really go on troubleshooting the white smoke unless I can make white smoke....


Larrym, I wanted to let you know a little bit more about that clutch problem. It only happens in first gear from a stop and it also happens in first gear when on the center stand. It is almost like the back wheel doesn't receive any of the power for a second after I release the clutch and add throttle. I hope that information helps.

P.S. Larry, SimpleGreen is not carb cleaner and you shouldn't be spraying it into your engine ( I'm only kidding,) but does carb cleaner really slow your engine down?

Any help is Greatly appreciated guys.

[CatatonicBug]

It sounds like everything it working except the fuel delivery system. I would start with the fuel cap and work your way down the line. The fuel cap has a vent that can get clogged, causing a bit of a vacuum in the tank. Be sure the petcock is allowing fuel to flow by using the prime setting for now. Kinked fuel lines are a common problem too. Be sure fuel is flowing through the carbs by opening the float bowl drains and watching it drain out the bottom for a bit. If you get that far, and fuel is fine, but it still won't start, I would suspect the carbs may need additional cleaning.

Of course, it may also be a vacuum issue. Remember, fuel is literally "sucked" from the carbs into the engine. If it can't get a vacuum, fuel won't move past the carbs.

P.S. Larry, SimpleGreen is not carb cleaner

Actually, I hear it's a GREAT carb cleaner, when used in an ultrasonic cleaning machine. If you try to soak the carbs in those dip-tank cleaners, it will swell the butterfly seals, and ruin them (so I hear), but the Simple Green is safe for soaking.

[Bigfoot]

So I was getting ready for my oil change (which I completed with no problems) when I noticed a few drops of oil coming out of the cam chain tensioner. I looked up this curious little nipple and found that it could be adjusted....Imagine my excitement. I read the instructions, but I somehow managed to strip the inside threads (I know, I know.) I was able to tap it successfully though. I should mention that I was lazy and decided that instead of pulling the spark plugs, I just put it into 5th and used the rear wheel to turn the engine (this turned out to be a bad idea for me.)

Sort of confused here and rather concerned. Why would you need to pull the spark plugs to adjust the cam chain tensioner? Why would you need to use the rear wheel to turn the engine?

I must have done something wrong, because everytime I completed the procedure for cam chain adjustment, the bike would begin to try and start and then lock up. Finally, after about the 4th try (I know) I pulled the spark plugs and did it the right way. After doing it the correct way, the start sequence sounds great (if that makes any sense), but the engine will not start.

Anyone besides me think he might have bent his valves?

What does boy genius do? Well after making sure the floats have fuel in them, I think I am being all slick and figure that if the carbs don't want to give the engine gas, I will. So I pull the spark plugs and pour just a little gas (ok, maybe a little too much) in each of the cylinders. I hit the start button and after about 1 and a half seconds......BOOM.BOOM.

Not sure what damage this could cause but I am sure that it is not a good idea.

[tw1980]

Hey knight I think you may have bent a valve.Or jumped a tooth on one of your cams by rotating the engine with the cam chain adjuster out. You can pull the valve cover and check the cam timing(make sure the marks are lined up)If that's ok then next I would do a compression test.

[knightops]

Thanks for the input.

Hey tw1980,
I suspect you may be right about the chain jumping a tooth. I hope I don't have a bent valve. I was hoping that the timing was proved to be correct due to the firing of the fuel I put in the cylinder.

Bigfoot,
Your concerns are most certainly valid. I indeed may have bent a valve, I was going to do the finger test today. Also, the manual says to take the spark plugs out in order to make the turning of the engine easier from the timing nut. I was using the rear wheel because someone had suggested it in these forums.

Thanks again guys and keep those ideas flowing please.

[Ivan]

For future info, never turn the engine with the tensioner out or not properly adjusted. Also, a 19mm or 3/4 wrench on the square of the timing plate will turn the engine over quite well, without taking the plugs out.

I would suspect you have a bent valve or two, which is why when the plug fired, you heard a pop out of the exhaust. Normally when the plug fires the valves are closed. Only other explanation is that you flooded the cylinders enough that fuel has run into the exhaust and that fuel ignited when the engine fired.

I am guessing it would be pretty smart to pull the valve cover and check that everything is still in time.

[Larrym]

Massengill?

I use the "GumOut" or "Berryman" carb cleaner. Whichever one is usually on sale with the "30% more" larger spray can. It always bogs whatever engine I'm "douching" down. People have and will use whatever product they think will give them that "fresh feeling" down there. (Don't know yet but I suspect that Simple Green would have an unpleasant after-taste. White Vinegar? To each his/her own I guess....)

Ouuch! If you removed the Cam chain tensioner even without turning the engine then you are at a point where the odds are 50/50 that the chain has jumped a tooth. There's a few threads here on the forum where owners have R&R'd CCT's with both good and bad results. Each and everytime the CCT is removed the mechanical timing between the crankshaft and the Camshafts should be verified. There. I said it and the current method is to pull the valve cover along with the left side cover near your big toe and follow the repair manual. BEFORE you attempt to start the engine. You're gonna have to do this now just to determine if the mechanical timing is "off". If the timing is still "good" then you likely don't have bent valves and can focus on another reason why the motor refuses to make the magic white smoke.

The fact that the PO went in and addressed the "dreaded" first/second gear issue makes things more complicated. IFF ( if and only if )the PO did it right then it sounds like the tranny just isn't going into gear when you actuate the shift lever. I'd suspect either a bent shift fork inside or a weak spring. I have yet to take my tranny apart so I'll defer to the judgement of those who Have done it. But for all basic purposes I'm going with a slightly bent shift fork based on what you've told me. I'd love to be contradicted on this one....

Using Ether or "starting fluid spray" isn't much safer than what you did. I would Never do what you did or use starting fluid without proper protection and having a good ABC rated fire extinguisher on hand. As in Right there at my feet when I hit the starter button.