Got defeated this weekend

[trbig]

are you sure ole Cody on that silver bullet wasn't just stroking along on a Rocky Mountain High site seeing as that C-14 of his is pretty stout

Don't get me wrong.. in the straights he whips me like a red headed step child. Nearly twice the HP will tend to do that. BUT.. in the twisties, I'm just a bit dumber than him I guess..


Tod

[Dan Hodges]

Those Who Have Crashed And Those Who Will

Don't get me wrong.. in the straights he whips me like a red headed step child. Nearly twice the HP will tend to do that. BUT.. in the twisties, I'm just a bit dumber than him I guess..


Tod

No you are not dumber, you just have less respect for the forces of nature.

[Larrym]

Tensioner R+R Consequences

I have read and reread this thread with much interest as I had a leaking cam chain tensioner and was considering removing it and replacing the leaking plug. My bike has just over 15K and probably doesn’t have a lot of slack in the chain making this “jumping-a-tooth” and bending the valves likely. Hmm…”likely”. Sounds like “not probable.” But then again, what if the chain DID have just enough slack to jump a tooth? I decided not to risk this and came up with a way to seal the leak with JB Weld and a metal cap. Not as purdy as I’d like it but then again, I didn’t bend any valves.

If this leak repair does fail then I will have to remove and replace this cam chain tensioner. (Can you feel it? My Pucker factor just went through the roof!!) How can I be sure that all the teeth stay lined up with the cam chain as I do this R+R?? I mean, not just check the timing after the process to ensure there was no “jumped tooth.” The procedure as written in the manual obviously leaves this bear trap open and ready to snap shut. (Eek!!)

So…..What about changing not the procedure, but the orientation of the bike/motor? Gravity appears to be the culprit here. Pulling the chain down and making it loose at the lower sprocket. What if the bike/motor were upright but positioned as if in that static “wheelie”? Would that ensure that both sprockets have an equal tension as gravity did what it always(?) does? Would the top/front part of the chain sag downward from the middle? What about the rear/bottom part of the chain? Is it supported or will it sag down as well? Will simply doing a “wheelie” as I work on this tensioner prevent the dreaded “defeat”??

I haven’t yet removed the tensioner and haven’t done any “rebuilds” or chain replacements. Only those of you who have done this would know if this change in bike position has any chance of working for this problem. I mean, the bike is already repositioned upside down in order to do the tranny dremel fix for 1’st gear. Turned on its side to do other work. Is this one more tech tip in the making or will the unsuspecting XS owner follow the repair manual step-by-step and get defeated?

[DiverRay]

The big thing is do NOT have the mark at the "C" when replacement of the chain is desired. (does this sound like a bad Japanese translation??) I have found that if you line up the timing at the "T", with both cams on the timing marks, the problems go WAY down! You WILL need to SLOWLY rotate the crank to the "C" and reset the tension on the adjuster after you are done. This is what I found to keep the valves and pistons from trying to mate...

[cueball]

Oil leak

LarryM, had problem with oil leak that I thought was from CCT, after 4 tries at fixing and still leaking. asked friend who was at time "Mud Pump" (harley) mechanic. He cleaned around CCT and found small crack in barrel above CCT where bolt went in. fixed, no more oil leak

[thewiz]

terms of endearment ...

"Mud Pump" (harley) mechanic

Never heard that term for a Harley before, cueball, but it's a good 'un.

[Larrym]

Wheelie or Not?

Thanks Cueball. The fix I did to my leaking CCT will probly get posted with pics in a separate thread. Gotta give the other members something to evaluate.

My concern here is that simply removing and replacing the CCT can and has resulted in disaster. Sometimes it hasn't. This thread started out with TR Big saying:

"Right before the Bob Jones rally last week, Bohn Frazier went to adjust his cam chain tensioner. He put the timing on mark on the C, removed the tensioner, pushed the plunger in all the way, re-installed, loosened the set screw and heard a "click", then tightened it down. When he went to start it, it didn't sound right he said. So he was told to try to adjust it again.. so he was turning the crank back to the C and said it felt "Notchy". Then it wouldn't start at all. He called me to ask my opinion, and I told him the notchy feeling was probably the crank gear jumping teeth on the chain and it is now out of time with the possibility of bent valves."

IMHO this sounds like a good/experienced mechanic who did what he was s'posed to do, the way he was s'posed to do, when he was s'posed to do it. Yet something bad happened. All this started when someone R+R'd a CCT. If you re-read the thread, there is another owner who reports having a similar experience with the same procedure. This is more than enough for me to smell the skunk in the woodpile in the SOP for removing and installing a CCT.

That's why I offered the "Wheelie" position as an option for discussion. Will it have any effect (positive or negative) on the cam chain position/tension on the sprockets. Will it prevent the "jumped-tooth" and what can happen afterwards?

Your thoughts, Gentlemen?

LarryM, had problem with oil leak that I thought was from CCT, after 4 tries at fixing and still leaking. asked friend who was at time "Mud Pump" (harley) mechanic. He cleaned around CCT and found small crack in barrel above CCT where bolt went in. fixed, no more oil leak

[cueball]

comes from idle noise,:mud pump, mud pump, mud pump. you'll never listen to a hogley at idle quite the same ever again. be careful, some owners got no sense of humour

[bikerphil]

I think it would be easier to take off the valve cover than to put the bike in the wheelie position, JMHO.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Larry,

Like DiverRay said, using the "C" mark for the plain old tensioner adjustment provides the position for the cams to apply tension on the back portion of the chain, allowing the maximum amount of slack to be then taken up by the adjustment procedure.

However, as Wa407 posted, REMOVING the tensioner completely in this position can then allow enough slack for the chain to drop down around the crankshaft sprocket and possibly skipping a tooth. Removing the valve cover and applying tension to the chain on the TOP can help prevent excess slack at the bottom. But like Ray said, using the "T" mark allows the the exhaust cam to possibly be putting tension on the tensioner side of the chain, so it actually won't be so loose, and may possibly not drop around the crankshaft sprocket. But to be sure, like BikerPhil said, pull the valve cover.
T.C.

[Crazcnuk]

I don't think it matters what position you do it in. It's all a big circle.

The reason that there is a C mark is because the assembly process has the motor assembled with the cam marks and the T mark lined up, so that you know all the pieces are in synch.

The C mark is where it is to make the assembler turn the crank a small amount, in the correct direction before setting the cam chain tension, after assembling the top end. This allows for the tensioner to take up any slack.

You can do this anywhere in the rotation, as long as you turn it, a small amount, in the correct direction.

If you like procedures and references, by all means use the marks.

[Larrym]

TC,

Umm...Yeah. I get the point that the procedure for adjusting the CCT provides the max slack to be taken up. I also get that if anyone is going to R+R a CCT then there has to be something done to prevent the slack resulting from the removal of the CCT. This slack seems to be the way that the chain at the bottom(crank side gear) gets misaligned out of the proper timing. I also get the point that you can pull the valve cover off and then by hook or by crook pull up on the cam chain to prevent the slack from occurring as the CCT is removed. (Sounds like I need to grow an extra hand to pull up on the chain as my other hands are removing the CCT...)

My concern is based on what I've learned and experienced with basic gears and chains. After all gears and chains react the same way regardless of what they are connected to.



In any chain/gear arrangement there is the drive gear and the driven gear. The chain of course connects them together so that as the drive gear turns the driven gear turns also. In the demo above, if this gear was the driving gear then the chain at the bottom would be tight and the chain at the top would tend to have less tension/a little slack. If the gear in the demo was the driven gear then the opposite would be true: chain is tight at the top and loose at the bottom. (Chains are good for pulling something. Ever tried to Push a chain???)

What I'm concerned about is that no matter what position we put the Indicator: "C", "T", or even if there were a smiley face somewhere on it, we would always turn the crankshaft CW and the front side of the cam chain would have slack it it. (Eek!!) The only way to remove the slack from the front side of the chain is to either have the CCT in place, or Pull up on the cam chain somehow exactly as we remove the CCT, or finally to turn the crankshaft Backwards. Turning the crankshaft backwards would remove the slack from the front of the engine where the CCT is but not really. It would just move the slack to the Back of the engine and I question whether that really is any better for preventing the chain from dropping down and jumping a tooth.

I still say that if the bike were in the "wheelie" position, the chain would sag back because "down/gravity" would be towards the rear tire. Sort of like the way that the drive sprocket and the driven sprocket are on a bike that has a chain drive for the rear wheel. Never seen that setup jump a tooth...

The "wheelie" position can be achieved by simply driving the bike up a ramp like the ones that I use to load/unload the bike from my truck. I'd say about 60 degrees is about right to make the chain sag equally at the front and the back to prevent the chain from dropping down on either side of the crankshaft sprocket...

Sounds like when I do remove my CCT that I'm gonna try this. I'll take pics and post.

(I've also read Crazcnuk's thread where I believe He got bitten by this SOP for R+R'ing his CCT.)

Thanks to all who chimed in!

Hey Larry,

Like DiverRay said, using the "C" mark for the plain old tensioner adjustment provides the position for the cams to apply tension on the back portion of the chain, allowing the maximum amount of slack to be then taken up by the adjustment procedure.

However, as Wa407 posted, REMOVING the tensioner completely in this position can then allow enough slack for the chain to drop down around the crankshaft sprocket and possibly skipping a tooth. Removing the valve cover and applying tension to the chain on the TOP can help prevent excess slack at the bottom. But like Ray said, using the "T" mark allows the the exhaust cam to possibly be putting tension on the tensioner side of the chain, so it actually won't be so loose, and may possibly not drop around the crankshaft sprocket. But to be sure, like BikerPhil said, pull the valve cover.
T.C.

[trbig]

Turning the crankshaft backwards would remove the slack from the front of the engine where the CCT is but not really. It would just move the slack to the Back of the engine

This is incorrect. If you moved the exhaust cam backwards and took up the slack, the intake cam is still holding the chain tight where it needs to be on the back side of the motor. All it would do is put the slack between the two cams. When you re-install the adjuster and let it slap the chain, it will turn the crank back forwards. Before tightening the adjuster, you could turn the crank a small amount CW to make sure both cams are moving (Making sure all the slack was at the front of the motor) and then tighten the adjuster.

I'm not saying the wheelie position wouldn't work. I think your thinking is correct and it would put the slack/bow in the chain in between the exhaust cam and the crank where it normally is anyway... but I think it would be more of a major PITA to get the bike in that position and stable versus simply pulling the valve cover.

Tod

[thewiz]

I think Tod is correct ..

you're working with two diffent driven sprockets here ... changes things up a bit, it seems to me.

I am one of those fortunate ones who has gotten away with changing out CCTs without pulling the cam cover and never haven broken something. Been close though.

When doing this job in the future, I plan to always remove the cam cover, have a spare CC gasket on hand, and use that opportunity to check valve clearances.

[trbig]

I am one of those fortunate ones who has gotten away with changing out CCTs without pulling the cam cover

I am also. I have removed the adjuster dozens of times with no problems. That is how I had always done my adjustments.. remove it and letting the adjuster slap the guide so I knew for sure it had adjusted out and not hung up. I've never had a single problem until it didn't work with Bohn's bike.

Tod