Won't go into 3rd

[CatatonicBug]

Well, I started riding to work this week, and because of how short the trip is (1.3 miles), I never get above 40 mph. I'm still learning how to operate a motorcycle, so I try not to push anything. I made my first attempt at shifting above 2nd gear today, and it just popped back down into 2nd again! It really reminded me of my old VW bug, when the gears were not synched properly. Is this indicative of a large repair? What should I look at to tackle this issue?

[XSPastor]

Is this indicative of a large repair? What should I look at to tackle this issue?

It depends on what you call a large repair. At the very least, you'll need to pull the transmission cover and check the shift drum pins/plate to make sure nothing is bent. Also check the spring that returns the pedal to it's position. I replaced mine recently and the new one feels much stiffer. In comparing them, the old one had relaxed quite a bit. I suppose it's possible that you might have a bent shift fork but that seems unlikely in third gear. The cover I'm talking about is the one under the shift pedal. It is a wet cavity so you'll have to drain the oil first and you'll probably need to buy/make a new gasket for the cover because they usually tear when removing the cover.

[bikerphil]

not shifting properly

XSpastor, you beat me to it.

CatatonicBug, you might want to check the shifter mechanism to make sure it is lined up properly. It's under the left side shifter cover. There is oil behind the cover so the bike has to be propped up leaning to the right. Check your service manual for proper alignment. If this checks out, maybe you have either a bad gear(s) or a bent shift fork. Servicing the transmission can be done with the engine still in the bike thru the oil pan. The manual will tell you to remove the engine and split the cases. This is not necessary. But first, make sure your clutch is adjusted properly as according to the manual.

[oldyam80sg]

Just curious what happens when you attempt to shift into another gear.If you shift up and don't pull in the clutch lever then it could pop out of gear.Is this your first bike?If so then maybe a friend who rides can take it for a ride.They might have more experience riding and could tell if there is a problem.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Catatonic,

It's rare, but a worn 3rd gear similar to the 1st/2nd gear dogs/slots problem have been reported, but it is rare!

If you'll follow This link to the Shift Lever return spring pictorial, you'll see the parts we are talking about.

There is a procedure for ensuring that the Shift Pawl is properly aligned with the shift drum, needs to be in 2nd gear, then check the alignment mark on both the shift pawl lever and shift drum plate, should concide, but if not, then adjustments to the shift lever where the spring pin is secured can get the pawl arm properly aligned. IF the shift drum is NOT rotating far enough, then it could allow the shift shaft fork to slide/return back to 2nd gear position instead of staying in 3rd!?

The shift fork for 1st is the one that usually gets bent/worn due to the 1st/2nd gear problem and by folks holding the shift lever down or up into the shifted position to keep the gears from popping out!

Also, depending on the position of the outside shift lever and your riding/seating position, you may have more difficulty pulling up on the lever effectively, and you can reposition the shift lever LOWER to provide you more leveridge for the upshifts, but want to make sure you can shift downwards without too far of a reach/down angle for your foot/toes.
T.C.

[CatatonicBug]

Just curious what happens when you attempt to shift into another gear.If you shift up and don't pull in the clutch lever then it could pop out of gear.Is this your first bike?If so then maybe a friend who rides can take it for a ride.They might have more experience riding and could tell if there is a problem.

Yes, this is my first bike, and I am just starting out on my first tank of gas ever. I am not comfortable with my skill level yet to take it out on the highway, so I don't have the opportunity to try to shift above 3rd. All I know is that when I tried to shift into 3rd at about 40 mph, it would not stay there at all. I didn't want to grind the gears, so I didn't even try to hold it there manually.

It sounds like I am going to have to open it up and look inside to check alignments. I just got the Clymer Manual downloaded and configured today, so I am hoping that between the original Yamaha manual and the Clymer one, I should be able to figure out what to do. I am hoping there is nothing actually broken and in need of replacement. Adjustments are free, and I can do that myself - parts are not.

[CatatonicBug]

Ok, I need some additional guidance on this one. The manuals don't reall say much about checking this stuff other than how to assemble/disassemble the shifter and the clutch.

I got the shifter cover (left side) off, and all the parts in there look nice and pretty. So, I took the clutch cover (right side) off to see what I might find in there. I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed now... Should I go ahead and remove the clutch assembly? If so, what should I be looking for when I do? If not, where else should I be looking?

I also thought I'd mention that, prior to this disassembly, when shifting, I could shift from first to neutral and back without using the clutch at all. I think I was also able to get into second witout the clutch, but I don't remember actually trying to do so. Could that mean that the clutch cable was just set too tight? Could that be the reason for not being able to get into 3rd?

[mitch]

Clutch

These bikes shift sloppy from the day they were built. Its possible that you are trying to be too careful you hafta shift them like you mean it at higher rpms. Yes you can shift with out the clutch but that is another debate. I think you should of got someone else take it for a ride before you took it apart.Im not dissin you buddy just trying to help . Good luck
Doug

[TopCatGr58]

Okay Bug,

You've got the shift lever cover and clutch lever cover's off. To answer your other question, IF the clutch cable was TOO TIGHT would mean that it would not have allowed all of the engine power to get to the trans/wheel, and would have resulted in slipping of the plates....engine spinning faster but not the trans/wheels. IT would not have prevented you from shifting into any gear. IF the cable was too loose, or the adjustment at the engine side was too loose, then it would have prevented the plates from separating properly, and this could have made it more difficult for shifting because power would have still have been being sent to the trans while trying to shift gears, essentially being under load instead of relaxed, however these transmissions can be shifted without the clutch all the way thru the gears and back, WITH the proper engine rpms, and flicking and releasing the throttle to create a short period of relaxed tension to allow the gears to slip apart and together while not being under load/stress before getting back on the throttle again.

What you can do now is first check the shift drum alignment marks with the shift pawl. Put the shift lever back on, be sure to align the dots next to the teeth portions. Pull the spark plugs to make turning the engine easier. Hopefully you can have a friend/swmbo to assist you in turning the engine. There is a square nut fitting on the timing plate under the left timing cover, but it's not that strong, would suggest using the larger hex bolt head under the right ALT cover instead. Just do NOT USE THE ELECTRIC STARTER IF you remove the ALT cover, it holds an oil galley plug at the bottom, and it can easily be pushed out by the oil pressure from a fast spinning engine, even though you may have drained the oil! Remember the engine spins backwards, CW from the left, CCW viewed from the right.

Now, shift/find neutral and verify that by free spinning the rear wheel. Then with the engine slowly spinning, shift UP into second, release the shift lever, and then check the alignment marks. There is a small line etched into the side of the shift pawl, AND the shift drum plate, they should ALIGN. IF NOT, then you can adjust the shift LEVER near the return spring to get the lines aligned. IF the lines are aligned, then you can continue spinning the engine and continued shifting UP to check to see if the trans will continue shifting upward. Note how many turns of the engine it takes to spin the rear wheel a full revolution...bike hopefully is on centerstand. Once you see how many turns for 2nd, shift into 3rd, and keep spinning, it should take LESS turns of the engine for a full rear wheel turn, and even less for 4th and 5th. THIS WAY you can verify that it is indeed shifting into the upper gears and staying in them.

You don't need to worry about being able to use the clutch, because the engine is NOT RUNNING, very little stress on the gears and they actually shift easier with the engine spinning. IF you are able to shift UP thru the gears, then put things back together. Be careful when putting the clutch cover back on, do NOT rotate the throwout lever, can loose some of the 3 bearings under that throwout plate! ALSO, be careful when putting the shift lever cover back on, it's a little tricky to get it to slide over the shift lever shaft, and the alignment dowels without pulling the cover slightly/partly back off, and this can cause the shift lever gear plate to separate from the shift lever PAWL gear, the dots will become misaligned, and then once it's together you will ONLY be able to shift into neutral and 1st...... DAMHIKTIJD !
T.C.

[madmax-im]

Okay Bug,

You've got the shift lever cover and clutch lever cover's off. To answer your other question, IF the clutch cable was TOO TIGHT would mean that it would not have allowed all of the engine power to get to the trans/wheel, and would have resulted in slipping of the plates....engine spinning faster but not the trans/wheels. IT would not have prevented you from shifting into any gear. IF the cable was too loose, or the adjustment at the engine side was too loose, then it would have prevented the plates from separating properly, and this could have made it more difficult for shifting because power would have still have been being sent to the trans while trying to shift gears, essentially being under load instead of relaxed, however these transmissions can be shifted without the clutch all the way thru the gears and back, WITH the proper engine rpms, and flicking and releasing the throttle to create a short period of relaxed tension to allow the gears to slip apart and together while not being under load/stress before getting back on the throttle again.

What you can do now is first check the shift drum alignment marks with the shift pawl. Put the shift lever back on, be sure to align the dots next to the teeth portions. Pull the spark plugs to make turning the engine easier. Hopefully you can have a friend/swmbo to assist you in turning the engine. There is a square nut fitting on the timing plate under the left timing cover, but it's not that strong, would suggest using the larger hex bolt head under the right ALT cover instead. Just do NOT USE THE ELECTRIC STARTER IF you remove the ALT cover, it holds an oil galley plug at the bottom, and it can easily be pushed out by the oil pressure from a fast spinning engine, even though you may have drained the oil! Remember the engine spins backwards, CW from the left, CCW viewed from the right.

Now, shift/find neutral and verify that by free spinning the rear wheel. Then with the engine slowly spinning, shift UP into second, release the shift lever, and then check the alignment marks. There is a small line etched into the side of the shift pawl, AND the shift drum plate, they should ALIGN. IF NOT, then you can adjust the shift LEVER near the return spring to get the lines aligned. IF the lines are aligned, then you can continue spinning the engine and continued shifting UP to check to see if the trans will continue shifting upward. Note how many turns of the engine it takes to spin the rear wheel a full revolution...bike hopefully is on centerstand. Once you see how many turns for 2nd, shift into 3rd, and keep spinning, it should take LESS turns of the engine for a full rear wheel turn, and even less for 4th and 5th. THIS WAY you can verify that it is indeed shifting into the upper gears and staying in them.

You don't need to worry about being able to use the clutch, because the engine is NOT RUNNING, very little stress on the gears and they actually shift easier with the engine spinning. IF you are able to shift UP thru the gears, then put things back together. Be careful when putting the clutch cover back on, do NOT rotate the throwout lever, can loose some of the 3 bearings under that throwout plate! ALSO, be careful when putting the shift lever cover back on, it's a little tricky to get it to slide over the shift lever shaft, and the alignment dowels without pulling the cover slightly/partly back off, and this can cause the shift lever gear plate to separate from the shift lever PAWL gear, the dots will become misaligned, and then once it's together you will ONLY be able to shift into neutral and 1st...... DAMHIKTIJD !
T.C.

Geeez DAMHIKTIJD Too

[CatatonicBug]

Thanks TC!

You make it sound so easy! Lots of "if's", but I will remain optomistic and try my hand at it on Monday evening. The manual mentioned the alignment of the marks on the shift pawl, but said that they would only be aligned when in 2nd gear?? Should they be aligned in Neutral too?

[bikerphil]

shifter

The mark on the shift drum (thingie with the pins) and the mark on the claw should be aligned when in 2nd gear. The dots where the sawteeth are should be always lined up, no matter which gear it's in.

[TopCatGr58]

Picture this!

Hey Bug,

These aren't the best photos, but this first one shows the dots on the gear sections, the second shows the shift pawl and the shift drum. The Alignment marks are NOT in the right position, but you can see them. IT's a simple LINE etched into the parts, it's in the middle of the pawl, and on the shift drum. On the drum, it's at 12 o'clock, on the pawl it's about 4 o'clock position around the edge of the drum.




T.C.

[Jerry]

Bug:

So far the emphasis has been on alognment of the shift pawl. Another thing to look at is under the shift cover as well, you can see it on TopCat's top photo of his last post, at the top-left part of the shot.

There is a round cylinder with little pins in it. The pins are held in place with a small cover. It is very comon for the "ears" on this cover to break, allowing the pins to slip out. (There is one pin for each gear). As you shift, a small arm either pushes (upshifitng) or pulls (downshifting) on these pins to change gears.

I had 5th gear go this way; the pin fell out and when I tried to upshift there was no 5th, bike stayed in 4th.

Pins and cover were still available from Yamaha last time I checked. I now have a spare cover and a couple pins which I keep in my small parts box, along with some fuses and other small items.

If the alignment of the shift pawl looks OK, check to see if all the pins are in place and the cover is OK. BTW, not all the pins are flush, that is why the cover has those little offset 'ears' to hold the pins in place.

Here is a link with a better photo of the alignment marks and the pin shift assembly that has the pins in it.
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...ght=shift+pins
Also talks about the pin issue as well as the alignment procedure. Scroll down to Trbig's photo, last entry in the thread.

[CatatonicBug]

Well, I managed to manually turn the engine and shift between all the gears. All of them, that is, except 5th! As it turns out, I am actually missing the 5th gear pin on the shift drum, just like Jerry suggested. The tab on the star thing is broken off, and the pin is gone. That kills 5th gear for me, but it's gonna be a while before I'm going to be going fast enough to get into 5th gear. I think I'll put it together again, and ride awhile while I save my pennies so I can go and purchase the parts from the local bike shop.

That still doesn't solve the original 3rd gear problem, but the fact that I was able to manually shift into and past 3rd gear gives me some hope that maybe it was just "user error". How fast (RPMs) should I be running before shifting up on flat ground? Is there a standard, or a guideline of any kind? Remember that I am just learning how to ride motorcycles, and I've never done this before...

Thanks everyone for all your help so far!!