Was That Head Gasket Red Or Gray?

[Crazcnuk]

I don't know. I just have a set of them. I would need some clay to make a mold to measure it.

[trbig]

I have not, nor will I ever assemble a motor with a used composition or steel gasket

I probably wouldn't recommend this to others, but in every dirt bike motor I have rebuilt, I have always re-used the head gasket, as well as with all the times I have been into these XS motors, besides the 1179 kit where I put a new one in. Yeah, some will call me foolish or cheap, but it's just that I have NEVER had any head gasket leaks.. either compression or oil.. from any motor when doing this.

This is with 15-20 rebuilds on dirt bikes, and gosh.... maybe at least 6-10 times for the XS/XJ motors? Not for the purist, but just stating that it is possible and I have never had a problem.

Same thing with the crush washers on the oil lines.. some re-use, and some don't. At a few cents a piece though, these are easier to just replace. If I had to replace the head gasket every time I went into one of these motors when it needed it... I'd have been able to just buy another bike.

Tod

[Dan Hodges]

XS 13.5 to 1 Compression Piston

Here is a picture of a Wiseco 13.5 to 1 compression XS piston for a 74.5 mm bore from my stash. The piston dome was designed for an XS combustion chamber that had been modified to displace 40 cc's and the valve reliefs were cut for 39 mm intakes and 33m exhaust. These slugs were a custom design that was based off a Kawasaki piston forging that I had made in 1989. Then as now, Wiseco, Venolia, J&E and the rest will make anything you want as long as you have the money. It is not the plan to use buttons to retain the wrist pins unless it's necessary because of the placement of the wrist pins which in some cases are located higher on the piston and behind or partially behind the oil ring which is a common practice in motors that employ large stroke increases. Pin buttons are easier to install than Spiro Locks or stock type pin locks however they rub against the cylinder wall creating drag and cylinder wall wear.

[Dan Hodges]

Originally posted by trbig


I probably wouldn't recommend this to others, but in every dirt bike motor I have rebuilt, I have always re-used the head gasket, as well as with all the times I have been into these XS motors, besides the 1179 kit where I put a new one in. Yeah, some will call me foolish or cheap, but it's just that I have NEVER had any head gasket leaks.. either compression or oil.. from any motor when doing this.

This is with 15-20 rebuilds on dirt bikes, and gosh.... maybe at least 6-10 times for the XS/XJ motors? Not for the purist, but just stating that it is possible and I have never had a problem.

Same thing with the crush washers on the oil lines.. some re-use, and some don't. At a few cents a piece though, these are easier to just replace. If I had to replace the head gasket every time I went into one of these motors when it needed it... I'd have been able to just buy another bike.

Tod

When you rebuild an XS you should get at the very least 10,000 miles out of it before you have to pull the head and freshen the valves and this is with a big cam and killer valve springs. A fresh Eleven with OEM stock parts will certainly go more than 10,000 miles between rebuilds and 25,000-30,000 miles would be more the norm if it was put together right with OEM stock parts. I always replace the copper crush washers that seals the oil line at the back of the head with the idea, it can't hurt. It is true that you can buy junk Elevens for $500 to $1,000 all day long but you won't get a trick or slick one for that and you certainly won't find one that will go 25,000 miles.............. without a bunch of work. At the end of the day though everyone has their own way of doing things and whatever works for that person is what's right for him/her. Lastly, I have owned only one dirt bike and it practically killed me and I decided I wasn't going for seconds after which I gave what was left of it away.

[Crazcnuk]

"A fresh Eleven with OEM stock parts will certainly go more than 10,000 miles between rebuilds and 25,000-30,000 miles would be more the norm if it was put together right with OEM stock parts."


Whaaaa?


If I didn't expect at LEAST 60,000miles (100,000kms) out of one these on of a rebuild, I wouldn't even bother with it.

I don't know of any of the big bikes that wouldn't go 50,000 miles, w/o major repairs, unless it's abused. (Hardleys. excepted, of course)

[Dan Hodges]

Run It Till It Has The Big One

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
"A fresh Eleven with OEM stock parts will certainly go more than 10,000 miles between rebuilds and 25,000-30,000 miles would be more the norm if it was put together right with OEM stock parts."


Whaaaa?


If I didn't expect at LEAST 60,000miles (100,000kms) out of one these on of a rebuild, I wouldn't even bother with it.

I don't know of any of the big bikes that wouldn't go 50,000 miles, w/o major repairs, unless it's abused. (Hardleys. excepted, of course)

I don't know how many miles they will go before they actually quit running and I don't recall the highest mileage I have ever seen however this would have a great deal to do with the type of mileage it has. The valve stem seals in the Eleven are teflon as are those in most others and in an air cooled motor they don't last all that long. Ditto for the valve springs and top rings. You also get a lot of carbon build up in the combustion chamber and the top ring grove which is the reason some of these high milage ones have so much pumping compression. Carbon also builds up on the valve stems, ports and guides which decreases air flow. The valve springs in all motors lose tension with use however in an air cooled motor this is more pronounced. I have had several of various brands of motorcycle engines apart and the valve springs in all of them had lost at least 20% of their seat tension by just 15,000 to 20,000 miles. I have a valve spring tester that measures spring pressure from 0 to 1,000 pounds of valve spring pressure and a valve spring out of any air cooled motor has actually begun to sag to a point that you can measure the sag with a ruler by 30,000 miles and the seat pressure has dropped by 20%-25% however the open pressure is off by as much as 50%. A simple way to check one is to measure the free height of a new stock one with a caliper vs a used one from a high mileage motor and see for yourself. The performance loss on one of these things is subtle as the miles roll by however a 50,000 mile bike is not going to be as strong as a fresh one but how long it will actually run is beyond me. In the post I responded to, the man stated, "If I had to replace the head gasket every time I went into one of these motors when it needed it, I would have enough money to buy another bike." If these things last 60,000 miles between rebuilds, he sure is doing a whole lot of riding..........was my point. In my case, when I'm on Attila out on Interstate 255 and that V-Rod or mega cubic inch V-Twin metric bike tries to pass I'll have every trick there is and hope I have enough. In the case of the V-Rods, they have gotten faster with the new 1250 cc motors and so I'm going to have to find some more cubic inches for my black Super Special and so it goes, different strokes for different folks.

[Crazcnuk]

Except that there are thousands of these bikes still rolling around with 30+ year old valve springs, rings etc.

Carbon buildup is only an issue on poorly tuned engines, and is much less prevalent with the gasolines and oils we have these days.

There are several XS1100's in these forums that are in the 150,000 to 200,000+ mile ranges.

I would assume that everything in these motors was designed knowing that they are air-cooled, and again since there are thousands of these bikes rolling around after 30 years, and they are still holding up, it goes against much of your argument there.

I find that most of the bikes that die young, do so because they are ridden very hard, and/or not maintained.

Many die because they sit for many years, and, when they don't run perfectly after, the owners scrap them.

I believe he is mucking with his engine because he is puttering, not because the engine has worn out.

I haven't actually seen any Japanese bike, since the 70's that didn't go well over 30,000 miles, barring accident, abuse or mistreatment.

I believe that most vehicles, cars or bikes, were designed to go 100,000 miles under 'normal' use. Well maintained, they often go a lot farther. Abused they don't make it.

[trbig]

I believe he is mucking with his engine because he is puttering, not because the engine has worn out.

My problems are numerous, but it was bent valves when changing a cam chain once, spun a crank bearing and ruined the block in another, the replacement engine got new crank/rod bearings, but apparently the crank wasn't in spec and the bearings didn't last.

It was just problem after problem for me. In almost 3 years, until a few months ago, I NEVER got to change my oil because it needed it. I never got 3k miles out of a motor until I had to tear it apart again for some reason or other. Believe me... it wasn't from puttering! lol. This last motor got new crank bearings and the 1179 kit. I have almost 10k on it riding @ 3k a month or so, and everything seems fine so far. I don't know anyone who rides one harder than me, so we'll see how long they last if you abuse them.. but maintain them! My clutch has started slipping in 1st a bit though, so don't know if it's the wheelies, but I did change oil from Castrol 20/50 to 10/40 because they were out of the other when I needed it. It started it at the last oil change... so that makes me wonder about it. I have new springs on the way, so I may just take it easy until the next change and do the new springs and back to the 20/50 all at once.

Tod

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Tod,

I think you are a victim of the "ambiguous antecedent"..."HE". I think Craz was talking about Dan's work...tinkering/puttering on his bike to tweak out the most performance he can. And I believe that Dan just has much higher performance expectations from his machine, and so when it gets what would be just normal riding aging changes and mild loss of performance for the rest of us, it's at an unacceptable level of performance for HIM!

Tod, do you have the extra Steel plate in your clutch pack? Yeah, pulling wheelies is a little extra stress on them, might have glazed the frictions a bit, dont' know?? My springs were sprung with just 6 years, and less than 10K miles since my rebuild in 2000, so that's why I went with both the extra steel AND the new springs when I went back into it!
T.C.

[mro]

My problems are numerous

It's all in the details and checking and rechecking spec's
Building an engine...or cleaning a set of carbs

Old shop saying:
When you don't spend the time to do it right the first time, you will have to make the time to do it right the second time.

Best teacher is doing something and XSpecting to make a profit.
You either learn quick or go broke


mro

[trbig]

When you don't spend the time to do it right the first time, you will have to make the time to do it right the second time.

OR... do the best you can do financially the first time, and worry about fixing it later if it doesn't work out! lol.


Yeah, I have the extra steel plate in there, and the clutch springs are maybe a year old with possibly 15k miles on them? The friction discs were all in spec when I put them in. I'm still wondering if the thinner oil is the culpret.

Anyone know where the best price is for the Barnett Springs? Are they actually any better than the ones from partsnmore?


Tod

[mro]

Barnett

Have a Barnett clutch kit in the hot rod.
Have the springs that are called HD (supposed to be 10% stiffer than stock, and do feel stiffer at the handle) on other XSes.
The Barnett springs do feel stiffer than the HD ones.

Was testing/practicing (playing) in front of my shop after installing the flat slide carbs. Couple wheelies and hard launches
Cracked the clutch basket
Could have been a defect in the basket that only cracked under the extra force of the starts. No problems with the replacement basket....yet


mro
BTW, the Barnett springs are thicker wire.

[Dan Hodges]

No Argument Here

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
Except that there are thousands of these bikes still rolling around with 30+ year old valve springs, rings etc.

Carbon buildup is only an issue on poorly tuned engines, and is much less prevalent with the gasolines and oils we have these days.

There are several XS1100's in these forums that are in the 150,000 to 200,000+ mile ranges.

I would assume that everything in these motors was designed knowing that they are air-cooled, and again since there are thousands of these bikes rolling around after 30 years, and they are still holding up, it goes against much of your argument there.

I find that most of the bikes that die young, do so because they are ridden very hard, and/or not maintained.

Many die because they sit for many years, and, when they don't run perfectly after, the owners scrap them.

I believe he is mucking with his engine because he is puttering, not because the engine has worn out.

I haven't actually seen any Japanese bike, since the 70's that didn't go well over 30,000 miles, barring accident, abuse or mistreatment.

I believe that most vehicles, cars or bikes, were designed to go 100,000 miles under 'normal' use. Well maintained, they often go a lot farther. Abused they don't make it.

Of course unleaded gas leaves fewer deposits in the chamber and top ring land than leaded gas and a good motor that is well sealed doesn't get oil in the chambers to begin with and if it does it kills horsepower. I never argue and I believe that all I said was, what happens to a valve spring through normal use and I have tested several of them from several bikes I have owned. Of course a motor will still run with weak valve springs however at high rpm the valve will not seal as well as one with good springs. I bought my 81 Special new and I still have the original certificate of origin which I previously posted. It still looks like new and has lots of power and I don't abuse it but I do like to go fast on the open Interstate. It was completely field stripped at 26,000 miles when it received new bearings, new clutch, some rod work, upgraded and freshened transmission, 72.5 mm Yamaha service pak pistons and a Nigel Patrick ported head and KB valve springs. It went back together and at 34,000 miles it got some more head work, a MegaCycle cam and a Wiseco 1179 piston kit. Against my better judgement I used some synthetic oil after I put it together and 1,000 miles later during my first dyno test it smoked the clutch disk pack. I then installed Yamaha OEM new disk, steels and new aftermarket clutch springs. I bought a set of Yamaha springs, EBC springs and a set from Vesrah after which I checked all three brands in my spring checker to measure their spring pressure. The EBC springs which are made in the UK and were the cheapest turned out to have the most spring pressure and they are the ones I used. I have now put about 2500 miles on this combo plus two dyno test and have had no problems. The stock cork lined clutch disk do not like synthetic oil but lots of folks use it. The clutch disk used in the XS are the same as those used in the FJ-1200 and are more than sufficient to hold the XS either in stock or modified form and the stiffer clutch springs are a good idea. I didn't have to take my motor apart at 26,000 miles and certainly didn't have to at 34,000 miles but did it because I was looking for a better shifting transmission and more horsepower. I have owned two bikes that didn't make it to 20,000 miles, one was a 900 Ninja and the other was a V-65 Honda Sabre which both were notorius for premature camshaft and rocker arm wear because of oiling problems in the Honda and poor heat treating of the Cams in the 900 Kaw. I never argue with anyone, I'm just relating what I have found in my mechanical adventures. Good luck with your's.

[Crazcnuk]

Heh, no arguement intended. Just saying I think your estimation of these motors is a little short.

I put over 50,000miles on a 750 Virago, and just about 60,000miles on a Shadow 1100. Never did ANY engine work to either one.

All the street bikes I've had had 20,000+ miles on them atleast, when I got them, or I put it on them. I've never had to do internal engine work on any of them until I bought the XS, which the PO had spun a rod bearing in.

I have a GT750 Suzuki that needs crankshaft seals, but this is a known issue when they sit for long periods, until you update the seals.

I had over 20,000 miles on my TS 250 dirt bike, 90% in the bush, and had it bored out pnce, because I overheated it severly stuck in a swamp for several hours.

[Jeremy_Sells]

Just thought I would jump in here and say that I too had one of those red head gaskets with my Wiseco 1196 kit that I got a few years back. I still have not got the kit installed and so the gasket hangs on the wall in the garage. It makes a great talking point when I have got folks in the garage. They want to know all about the weird color gasket and could care less about the 1964 Mercedes in the corner!