Valves

[prometheus578]

"I like you, you have a warped head."

If you're referring the the head mounting stud in the second picture... A leaking head gasket could cause that. Also, ask the machinist to check the head for warpage and shave it if needed.
I have a warped head, and have to shave daily, so I know what I'm talking about.

[prometheus578]

Those large indents on the pistons are to give the valves more clearance. A piston striking a valve would just leave a little scar.

[CarolynS]

The OTHER dent

Next to the indent that the pistons are forged with is a silvery mark that is a slight indent. These are found on every piston both sides-intake and exhaust-some are more obvious than others, more like a scratch than a scuff. Does that make sense?

[oldnortonrider]

I would say the head gasket was leaking, between the fronts of those two cyclinders, and collecting around that stud.

[CarolynS]

Head gasket

When we pulled the head off I did notice that the gasket was broken, but I thought we did that when we lifted it. That really wouldn't happen that way though because we had to clear the studs before we could rip it. Now that you mention it, when we pulled it up the gasket was torn.

[oldnortonrider]

Show a pic of the torn gasket part; both sides.

Yeah, I'm betting there had been some damage to that area of the gasket, last time the head had been off and put back on. No worry, it won't be put back together that way.

[CarolynS]

head gasket

It's sort of mangled now, Norton. Well, not really mangled, but it doesn't look the same as the moment I took the head off.
That must be the only thing it could be. It won't matter anyway once everything is clean and put back together.
Is it really going to be that difficult to put this back together? It sure sounds it from the manual. I don't own a torque wrench anymore, but I could probably borrow one from the guys at work. It's going to be a bear to reach in there. That's how I busted the one knuckle!LOL.
Can I change the acorn nuts over to something else? They are sort of ugly and I don't trust them not to look uglier after the heads back on. I don't think this engine has ever been apart either. There were no tool marks on any of the nuts or bolts.
I keep going back and forth about reassembly-should I do it? Have the mechanic do it? It's hard to decide. I had alot of fun working on it. It was a little nervewracking but in a good way-don't want to break anything or screw anything up-but as I went along it got easier. Plus, I don't want to have the moment of truth come-starting it-and have nothing happen when I push the button. Like George McFly, 'I don't think I could handle that kind of rejection.' That's probably the biggest motivator for me to have the 'guy' do it.

[trbig]

Were any of the head nuts loose when you went to take them off? If they were all tight, I would assume a leaking head gasket also.

There didn't seem to be an XSessive amount of carbon to me, either in the exhaust port or on the pistons. I have seen some that have been burning oil for a while that are really bad. The marks you see on the valves and in the cup of the head are from the tops of the studs when you were wrestling it out, hanging up on wires and such. I know you want to do this yourself, but it helps to have a second set of hands to help guide it back on, moving wires and cables and such for you. Those little studs for the cam caps catch on everything. Just be careful when installing it back.

You will need a torque wrench, but f you took this apart, you can put it back together. You will also need to re-torque the head nuts after it gets to operating temps and cools back down the first time. You just have to be sure everything is around all the sprockets and in time before you move anything. When you are turning the motor over with a wrench to be able to get to the 2nd set of cam bolts, I always stick one finger in through the hole where the cam chain adjuster sits... and push on that bar to hold pressure on the chain so it doesn't skip any teeth on the gears.

When installing the cam gears, make sure to keep the chain tight between the intake cam gear and the crank along the back side of the motor. If you let it be loose, the crank will have to move a bit and take up the slack before the cams will follow... and usually lets it be out of time by one tooth on the gear.

One final warning, before moving anything... think about it several times to make sure you have everything right. Even shine a light down the center into the guts of your motor and visually check that the chain is on the crank sprocket. It is possible to have the chain riding next to the sprocket. If this happens, when you turn the crank, the pistons will move but not the cams.... more bent valves.

It may seem daunting, but just make sure you think things through really well before you make any movements to the motor. Chain on sprockets... adjuster bar pushed in, arrows all lined up. Don't forget to oil everything well on reassembly also.

Tod

[oldnortonrider]

Does the machinist or "mechanic" have the experience with motorcycle or car motors that have overhead cams that use camchains?~~the one you're referring to using? If they have, they'll for sure have the special $80 Motion Pro tool that it takes to get the camchain put back together by bradding the link pin proper over the link plate. They may have a foot-pound torque wrench (which they'll have to have), but do they have an inch pound torque wrench (which they'll have to have).

......................I can see you readin' in between the lines. Let yer imagination be your guide........................

[randy]

oldnortonrider;

I know what the ft-lb torque wrench is for, but I don't recall ever using an in-lb wrench on the head?

[trbig]

Most torque wrenches won't cover the range that we need for this bike in one wrench. Some will, but the little things like the cam cap nuts and set screw for the cam chain adjuster need a wrench that goes down into fairly small inch pounds. I'm probably wrong.. but I am thinking like 7.2 ft pounds... 86.4 In pounds.


One other thing I forgot to mention in the last posting... I found a place to get the acorn nuts for the head that are chrome. They look nice, but aren't very cheap. Let me know if you're interested. The info is on my home computer.


Tod

[oldnortonrider]

Right > those little 10mm nuts on the camcaps require crosshatching with a quarter inch drive INCH POUND torquewrench. Each foot pound = 12 inch pounds; ie, 7 ft.lbs~~84 in.lbs. When you're tightening something that would require around 6-9 ft.lbs. (or in vicinity of 60-100 inch pound range) > when you've got all up to about half where you're gonna stop at~~go at "about a pound per twist" in crosshatch. You can't do that with that 3/8" breaker bar foot pound torque wrench. Inch pound;quarter inch drive. Same wrench slash tool slash socket on the six clutch spring bolts. Ten on each cam. I spend more $, now, on tools than I do on pieces and parts. Continuous, continuous.

[CarolynS]

Dropped the head off

Finally met the mechanic. The decision has been made.
I am delivering the bike to him sometime this week. Great guy, comes highly recommended.
Price quoted-$400 to redo the head-unless something horrible is discovered.He's a little worried about the guides. Showed me how the carbon was uniform on two of them, but had chipped off on the other two. Said that indicated an impact with alot of force, so he really wants to check the guides closely. He says the carb boots are cracked all the way thru, and showed me that they were, so carb boots will be ordered. I like him. Retired aircraft, jet engine mechanic. Had a very expensive New Yamaha up on the lift prepping it for a cross country ride. Looked like my grandfathers basement when he was alive-that man could fix or fabricate anything, everything neat and orderly-even has a set of 11.5 inch shocks he'll throw in to the deal so I can lower the bike.
So, first chance I get the bike will be trailered up and dropped off.
He said that these engines are still one of the favorites of drag racers, and one of his favorites to work on. I feel fortunate to find someone that respects the bike. He even told me a HD joke to lay on HWMBO-What do Harley's and Golden Retrievers have in common? They both like to ride in the backs of pickup trucks.
This should work out fine. I told him no rush, just as long as I get to ride a little this summer/fall. It will probably be ready in a couple of weeks. Woo-Hoo!

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Carolyn,

Does the $400 include putting the engine back together? IF so, then yes that is a great price for the head work and putting it back together. Hopefully he can also check and set the valve clearances as well! If you have a manual, wouldn't hurt to bring it to him just in case he doesn't have one for reference, for the torque values...sequences...in 2 steps for the head nuts, cam timing procedure, etc...although he does sound very experienced with bikes in general, it's easy to forget some of the finer details in working on these machines, like the "T" timing mark for the cam dots, but the "C" mark for setting the cam chain tensioner, etc.!

Also, from your description and the findings it does sound like it was a very HIGH RPM valve float incident that caused the pistons to hit ALL of the valves! I know I heard that theory somewhere before... ! Would ask him to check the piston tops and perhaps deburr them where the valves hit so as to not create hot spots that could cause preignition!

To paraphrase a great Dirty Harry line, "A Woman's got to know her limitations"! I/we think you've done great to take the thing apart, and if you weren't rushed to get it running by Memorial Day that I'm sure you'd be willing to try putting it back together yourself. But there's no shame in having the mech do the really technical stuff, it's no fun bending NEW VALVES!!

Along with the Intake Boots, you are going back with a NEW Cam Chain right? Okay, looking forward to seeing you AT XS East in a few more weeks!!!
T.C.

[skids]

Re: Dropped the head off

...And they both make wet spots.

Originally posted by CarolynS
He even told me a HD joke to lay on HWMBO-What do Harley's and Golden Retrievers have in common? They both like to ride in the backs of pickup trucks.