One disc as opposed to two....?

[red bandit]

When I need to stop I pull out an umbrella. When I need to stop really fast I pull out 2 umbrellas, but then I need to hold on real tight cause it almost pulls me off the bike.

[Crazcnuk]

Well, I feel for you. I would hate to be so limited I can only run a vehicle with a very narrow set of paramaters. It would really limit what I could do.

Half his breaks were never shut off. Only about 1/2 of the front brake setup, which is about 30% of the total braking power, if that. Just because you have 2 discs doesn't mean your using full force on them at all times. Losing one only means you have to use more pressure on the remaining disc to get as close as you can to the same effect. Your actually only losing about 20% of your braking ability.

I don't assume that just because they put X brakes on it HAS to have all X brakes to get me across town.

One has to understand that the brakes on the XS were designed to slow it down from 140mph. Not 60mph. The brakes are way over engineered for normal around town cruising.

Luckily I have more than one speed on the throttle, and can compensate with my depth perception to slow down sooner. These abilites allow me to do all sorts of things I wouldn't otherwise be able to do.

No spirits over here Ken.

[markjs]

Well here's another factor. I was riding this in a very small town, where the speed limit is 25, and 30 down the one main drag. It's a rural surrounding area with lonely country roads, and one main highway. On the main highway, I ALWAYS obey the speed limit of 50MPH, except when passing (safely in a legal zone, and speeding to pass is legal in my state). Any joy riding I did, was quite limited, and on a country road with little traffic, that I know like the back of my hand, fully alert, and I never exceeded 80MPH. In the final analysis, if I had the means to repair it, I would have. Fact is I didn't and the only other option was walking.

I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I live to ride and ride to live. I never had the money or will to be a "Harley guy" whatever the hell that means. If I was rich enough to own one of those, I'd probably hate myself for being a "conformist sheeple". But biking is in my blood, and one other thing I know is that in this life, if you don't roll the dice, you never win. Sometimes you lose, but if you never play the game, you never truly lived at all.

So all you "safe and sane" motorcyclists, I have nothing against that, and I am happy for you, that you have the resources to ride machines that are in peak condtion at all times. All the same though, and I don't mean this is a put down, but only as a descriptive distinction; never confuse yourselves with "real bikers". Not a damn thing wrong with either type of person in my honest opinion, but a "real biker" in my mind, rides any bike he can and leans to ride it well no matter what it is, or what state it's in, but he takes pride in the fact that all of the work that keeps it on the road running was done by his own efforts, and his own two hands.

Ride on, and keep the rubberside down.....

[Crazcnuk]

Thats me too, but I add a 'know your machinery' factor in there. Every machine has it's limits, and sometimes they change and you have to adapt.

Whenever I can I will even improve my machines, but I understand, that once in a while they will have issues that I either have to adapt to, or deal with.

I have owned very few new vehicles, yet I have never been left stranded by any of them. I also haven't run into anything, yet, and lots of people with far newer and far better vehicles have.

If they think the XS with one disk is short of brakes, they should try a GT750 with drums front and back!

How about a 1963 VW beetle, with 4 wheel drums, non-servo acting brakes.

It's one of those human things where one can delude themselves into thinking they are perfectly safe because everything works. However, objects jump out in front of vehicles at all different distances, angles and speeds. People who believe that being one disc short makes you completely dangerous also believe that all accidents can be avoided if everyone drives speed limit.

Funny part is very few of THEM drive the posted speed limit or less!

Must be because thier brakes are 100% functional.

[mason79]

speed limits are one thing, but violent aceleration to that legal limit from one of our engines is pure momentum madness, and that alone will bully any hardware attached to decel the beast; even your trusty umbrellas, soooo... it's not just defensive adhereing to posted signs but common sense.

this only applys to one brake disc wonders, all others lets race around in the streets!!!

[Crazcnuk]

heh, yeah!

[malber]

In spite of any personal philosophy to live by like "roll the bones" or "live to ride, ride to live," I like to think of Scotty's phrase: "You canna change the laws of physics!"

Seriously, if your front brakes provide 70% of your stopping power and it takes you 30 ft to stop, then with half functioning brakes it would take you 10.5 additional feet to stop your bike. This is a linear equation, so think what would happen in case of the need for an emergency stop when you're going 80mph.

Please, fix that brake before we see you in the memoriam thread.

[snowdog51]

brakes

my first bmw 70 75/5 had drums front and rear for the most part no brakes at all.
drove that bike to every judo tournament
in usa for 5 years put 257000. miles on.
that bike had the stopping power of the xs11's rear brake. it's all relative.
if you have stockxs front master and stock lines you have poor brakes.
as ever bill



it's never too soon to hate bmw

[79XS11F]

Originally posted by markjs

So all you "safe and sane" motorcyclists, I have nothing against that, and I am happy for you, that you have the resources to ride machines that are in peak condtion at all times. All the same though, and I don't mean this is a put down, but only as a descriptive distinction; never confuse yourselves with "real bikers". Not a damn thing wrong with either type of person in my honest opinion, but a "real biker" in my mind, rides any bike he can and leans to ride it well no matter what it is, or what state it's in, but he takes pride in the fact that all of the work that keeps it on the road running was done by his own efforts, and his own two hands.

Ride on, and keep the rubberside down.....

OH DEAR ... I didn't realize that to be a "real biker" I had to use my bike even when it was mechanically unfit?? If you have doubts about whether or not your bike is in fact unfit ... just take it down to the local bike shop and ask them to give you a safety certificate for the bike with 1/2 the front brakes off line.
Rob

[79XS11F]

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
Thats me too, but I add a 'know your machinery' factor in there. Every machine has it's limits, and sometimes they change and you have to adapt.

Whenever I can I will even improve my machines, but I understand, that once in a while they will have issues that I either have to adapt to, or deal with.

I have owned very few new vehicles, yet I have never been left stranded by any of them. I also haven't run into anything, yet, and lots of people with far newer and far better vehicles have.

If they think the XS with one disk is short of brakes, they should try a GT750 with drums front and back!

How about a 1963 VW beetle, with 4 wheel drums, non-servo acting brakes.

It's one of those human things where one can delude themselves into thinking they are perfectly safe because everything works. However, objects jump out in front of vehicles at all different distances, angles and speeds. People who believe that being one disc short makes you completely dangerous also believe that all accidents can be avoided if everyone drives speed limit.

Funny part is very few of THEM drive the posted speed limit or less!

Must be because thier brakes are 100% functional.

Given that riding a bike is already inherently dangerous compared to other forms of transportation that one should stack the odds in their favor? Like having a reasonable knowledge of biking and a bike that is operating as the manufacturer intended it to?
This brake fix started as a "I will fix it right ASAP" sort of thing but if you check the posting dates you can see that it became the final fix for the entire riding season.
What will happen if that single remaining overworked front caliper fails when it is needed the most? Someone might get hurt or worse killed and it may be the rider OR it could be someones kid, wife mother etc ....
If living in a small town where the posted speed limit is low means that it's OK to use unfit vehicles within the town ....then I'm glad I don't live in that town.
Rob

[Crazcnuk]

<sigh> You just don't get it. I feel sorry for you.

You haven't proven the bike is at all 'unfit'. What do you base this on? Oh, a safety inspection? Do you know how much those guys know about mechanical engineering? Squat.

All they do is look in a book and see if it has what the factory put on. They know nothing about how a vehicle works, and, apparently, neithr do you.

Do they give me a bonus sticker because my Monte Carlo exceeds almost all the factory specifications?

"Seriously, if your front brakes provide 70% of your stopping power and it takes you 30 ft to stop, then with half functioning brakes it would take you 10.5 additional feet to stop your bike. This is a linear equation, so think what would happen in case of the need for an emergency stop when you're going 80mph."

So what's your point? Do all your vehicles stop in exactly the same distance, or do you drive each one differently, according to it's abilities? The 80mph thing has already been covered. Most people will tell you your an idiot to do 80mph EVER full brakes or not. We all drive to our own limits, be they what they may.

I am just amazed that people can't grasp the concept of modifying how they drive for different conditions. How do you people drive when it rains, or snows, or at night? How do you drive different vehicles with different stopping abilities?

Since it seems you all must drive by counting and hitting the brakes at the same time, no matter where your driving, or in what! I am glad I don't drive anywhere near you! I'd rather drive around our freind here with one less caliper, than around a bunch of dead foot drivers who have no understanding that although the laws of physics are immutable, for some of us, driving style is flexible.

I just don't know how any of you drive a bike at all, since your car probably stops 3ft quicker.

[malber]

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
"Seriously, if your front brakes provide 70% of your stopping power and it takes you 30 ft to stop, then with half functioning brakes it would take you 10.5 additional feet to stop your bike. This is a linear equation, so think what would happen in case of the need for an emergency stop when you're going 80mph."

So what's your point? Do all your vehicles stop in exactly the same distance, or do you drive each one differently, according to it's abilities? The 80mph thing has already been covered. Most people will tell you your an idiot to do 80mph EVER full brakes or not. We all drive to our own limits, be they what they may.

My point is that no matter what level of awareness you think you have, you can't change the laws of physics. Ever wonder why there are two rotors on the front of the XS11? That's be cause the designers were smart enough to know that with a wet weight of 600+ lbs. plus whatever weight of a middle aged rider that they were needed to provide enough stopping power. I'm no mechanic so I'll trust the smart Japanese designers and physics over my own powers of perception.

My point about the math is that if the bike operating as designed would stop in 30 ft, it would stop in 40.5 feet with half the front braking ability. The friction point where the front wheel will lock up is the same regardless if you have one rotor functioning or two, so you can't say that you could do anything different to reduce that distance, it's physically (literally) impossible. At 25 mph you travel 10.5 feet in about 0.28 seconds. That means that you'd have to have just that much more reaction time to successfully do an emergency stop without hitting the object. Your average reaction time is the same regardless of what activity you're doing, so you can't alter that either.

If I were driving my cage and my power brakes went out, I would not continue to drive it thinking I could overcome this deficiency.

[Crazcnuk]

But you still miss the point.

"My point is that no matter what level of awareness you think you have, you can't change the laws of physics. Ever wonder why there are two rotors on the front of the XS11?"

There are two rotors to stop the XS from 130+mph. One is plenty from 60mph, if you compensate for the stopping difference which at low speeds is negligible.

"My point about the math is that if the bike operating as designed would stop in 30 ft, it would stop in 40.5 feet with half the front braking ability."

First off he has more than half his braking power. In fact he has probably 70 or 80%, so your talking a difference of what 2-3'? I usually leave myself a much larger safety margin than that anyway.

"The friction point where the front wheel will lock up is the same regardless if you have one rotor functioning or two, so you can't say that you could do anything different to reduce that distance, it's physically (literally) impossible.

Exactly, so you should still be able to get almost full stopping power on the front simply by putting more pressure on teh one rotor. If this is the case and you can lock the front wheel with one rotor, then his stopping distance is exactly the same Except for the extra ms or 2 to get the additional force on the caliper.

"At 25 mph you travel 10.5 feet in about 0.28 seconds. That means that you'd have to have just that much more reaction time to successfully do an emergency stop without hitting the object. Your average reaction time is the same regardless of what activity you're doing, so you can't alter that either."

Actually your reaction time is also affected by your state of mind. If your all comfy in the knowledge that your bike will stoip 3ft quicker than the other guy, you may not be paying as much attention, whereas the guy driving around with less brakes may well be paying closer attention.

Reaction time is moot, however, as it changes with your level of concentration on what you are doing.

Personally, unlike you, I tend to start slowing down WELL in advance of where I need to be stopped. I like having an extra safety margin in there. I am not always screeching to a stop at the max ability of my braking system, so I don't have to rely on reactions times or the minimum stopping distance calculations.

As for obstacles that present themselves unexpectedly, they can occur at anytime, any distance, anywhere. None of these arguments mean a damn thing if the moose jumps out 10ft ahead of you, even at 30mph. The speed limit/emergency scenario arguments are always based on the obstacle presnting itself at just the ideal distance for the arguer. Unfortunately that is not how accidents work.

We all have vehicles with differeing capabilites, and, I hope, we drive accordingly.

[81xsproject]

So, I just read this all at once. Here's an update on the argument. No one's winning, nor will they. Mark, no one's going to come down there and pull you off that bike because it doesn't have a stock braking system. Is it LESS safe? YES. Obviously. Riding it that way is your call. Leave it, fix it, your call. This thread is going no where. He asked for people's opinion on riding it with one caliper. Obviously Mark now knows where each of you stand. The two person debate has long detached itself from informative. As a suggestion only, PM's would be a better mode for a personal argument. So, again lets take a breath and cool down.

[malber]

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
Exactly, so you should still be able to get almost full stopping power on the front simply by putting more pressure on teh one rotor. If this is the case and you can lock the front wheel with one rotor, then his stopping distance is exactly the same Except for the extra ms or 2 to get the additional force on the caliper.

If you've locked up the front wheel you're no longer stopping. You're sliding, and likely doing a low side laying it down.

I see that we're going to get no where with this discussion. I don't screech to every stop. What I do do is plan for the unexpected by making sure my brakes are in 100% working order for those occasions like last week where the Chevy S10 pulled out from being parallel parked right in front of me without looking while I was riding down the same road I ride every day on my commute home. No signal, no brake lights, nothing to see from 30 feet away, which was about the distance that I was when he did it. 10.5 ft less stopping distance and I would have been replying from a hospital.

And I ride with the same level of concentration regardless of what I'm riding/driving. To do anything different would be as insane as riding with half my braking ability.