Why ATE style brakes?

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  • fredintoon
    Master of XSology
    • Mar 2004
    • 6795
    • Saskatoon SK

    #1

    Why ATE style brakes?

    Alan B just posted that Euro Specials have forward-mounted wheels and "normal" calipers instead of the ATE style calipers on North American Specials.
    I'd never seen an ATE style caliper until I got my XS11SG (it was in sad shape) and in unjamming the locked on brakes I found that some clown of a PO had (as I thought) ground the pads tapered. Got new pads and WTF? They are SUPPOSED to be like that??? Seems to me that any braking system that needs tapered pads has to have been designed by an imbecile.
    Later I found that Beemers, (the guys that have 9 parts in the entire engine and 142 in the twistgrip) used to have ATE calipers. So why'd Yamaha copy the fools? Does anybody know?
    Fred Hill, S'toon.
    Fred Hill, S'toon
    XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
    "The Flying Pumpkin"
  • AlanB
    XSive Maximus
    • Oct 2006
    • 705
    • Scotland

    #2
    Hi Fred,

    All the specials I have seen have the "pivoting" calipers. The Euro SPORT has the leading axle forks and conventional calipers.

    As far as I know, the Sport (5K7) model did not ever come to the States; Try looking at the European sites for info.

    AlanB
    If it ain't broke, modify it!

    Comment

    • fredintoon
      Master of XSology
      • Mar 2004
      • 6795
      • Saskatoon SK

      #3
      OK then, SPORT

      Hi Alan B,
      yes, your original post did say "Sport", not "Special". That the Euro only 5K7 had a forward axle with conventional calipers means that Yamaha did have the parts to fit that layout on the Special. So my question remains; why the stupid swivelly calipers?
      Fred Hill, S'toon.
      Fred Hill, S'toon
      XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
      "The Flying Pumpkin"

      Comment

      • AlanB
        XSive Maximus
        • Oct 2006
        • 705
        • Scotland

        #4
        Hi Fred,

        I have been told that most of the reasons for the japs using weird brakes was to do with Lockheed and Girling holding patents on most of the designs which work, so rather than pay the bills, they designed their way round the patents!

        I don't know whether that is true, but it would explain a lot about Japanese brake calipers!

        Earlier brakes (RD250/350 A+B, early XS650) had "conventional" opposed twin-piston calipers which worked very well; although pads and disc materials were not good! then in the 80's they moved to the swinging/sliding types, when they obviously knew how to make the good stuff, 'cos they did it in the 70's!

        AlanB
        If it ain't broke, modify it!

        Comment

        • prometheus578
          XS-XJ Super Guru (RESIGNED)
          • Aug 2004
          • 4012
          • Olympia , Wa.

          #5
          "Not that I know..."

          How about...
          The beveled pads give a progressive braking effect.
          How about...
          The beveled face gives more brake pad surface.
          How about...
          I really don't know.
          "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

          Comment

          • HobbyMan
            MeatHead Idiot "GURU"
            • Jul 2006
            • 1801
            • Colleyville, TX

            #6
            How about noise? Why do people put shims in STD brake pads?
            United States Merchant Marine Academy, Kings Point, NY
            If I can do it at 18 yrs old, anyone can
            "You know something, You can't polish a turd"
            "What are you rebelling against", "Well, what do you got?"
            Acta Non Verba

            Comment

            • prometheus578
              XS-XJ Super Guru (RESIGNED)
              • Aug 2004
              • 4012
              • Olympia , Wa.

              #7
              It stops the high speed vibration/chatter when the brakes are applied. Bevelled pads, were thought to eliminate that, by one edge striking first before the full pad engaged. at least that's the story I was told. (and until I know better, that's the story I tell)
              "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

              Comment

              • DeanR
                XS-XJ Guru
                • Jan 2005
                • 1483
                • Finger Lakes NY

                #8
                What does ATE calipers stand for?
                80 SG
                81 SH in parts
                99 ST1100
                91 ST1100

                Comment

                • fredintoon
                  Master of XSology
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 6795
                  • Saskatoon SK

                  #9
                  what's it mean?

                  Hi Laxdad, Prometheus,
                  I dunno what the initials mean, I called 'em "those effin' stupid swivelly calipers" until someone told me they were knockoffs of BMW's ATE calipers.
                  Anti-chatter? dunno about that either; the noise my brakes make in an emergency is drowned out by my screaming in fear.
                  Seems to me that those pads can only wear on the thick edge or they'd be down to the metal in 100 miles or less and that's bad design.
                  Fred Hill, S'toon.
                  Fred Hill, S'toon
                  XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
                  "The Flying Pumpkin"

                  Comment

                  • Crazcnuk
                    XS-XJ Guru
                    • Aug 2006
                    • 2980
                    • Hinton, AB, Canada

                    #10
                    If I remember correctly, the reason for the tapered pads was that these types of calipers try and use servo action to apply additional pressure on the rotors.


                    All drum brakes, since the 60's, are servo acting, meaning that one edge of the shoe hits the drum first, and the rotational torque actually pulls the shoe into the drum. this allows far more braking pressure than one can apply mechanically using the brake pedal.

                    The fact that disc brakes didin't use this mechanical advantage was one of the early disc brakes shortfalls.

                    That is why they taper the pads. The thin part, that touches first, gets the least amount of pad pressure on the rotor, and wears the least. As you get along the pad, more and more force is applied and thus more wear.

                    These pads are worn out when they are pretty much flat across.
                    Nice day, if it doesn't rain...

                    '05 ST1300
                    '83 502/502 Monte Carlo for sale/trade

                    Comment

                    • prometheus578
                      XS-XJ Super Guru (RESIGNED)
                      • Aug 2004
                      • 4012
                      • Olympia , Wa.

                      #11
                      Thanks. Crazcnuk.
                      "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

                      Comment

                      • jimboreeno
                        XStremely XSive
                        • Aug 2005
                        • 427
                        • Smithville, MO

                        #12
                        That is the way bicycle brakes are setup. The brake pads are at a slight angle so the toe hits first and draws the pad in just as Crazcnuk explained. On a bicycle the camber is adjustable and doing so is one way to eliminate braking vibration and keep them from screaming as well.
                        JimBoReeno
                        My Ex!"Half-Breed"
                        '82 XJ1100 Maxim with
                        '80 XS1100SG Motor

                        Current Bike
                        2000 Indian Chief
                        Millennium Edition

                        Comment

                        • fredintoon
                          Master of XSology
                          • Mar 2004
                          • 6795
                          • Saskatoon SK

                          #13
                          Thin edges firts?

                          Crazcnuk sez:-

                          That is why they taper the pads. The thin part, that touches first, gets the least amount of pad pressure on the rotor, and wears the least. As you get along the pad, more and more force is applied and thus more wear.

                          Oh Gawd, it gets worse. Are you saying that the thin edges of both pads in each caliper lead the disk, that they are both at the rear of the caliper?
                          I swear I installed the bastards one thin edge & one thick edge so at least the slot between them was parallel. Put a few thousand K on the bike since and the brakes seem to work OK.
                          Help!
                          Fred Hill, S'toon.
                          Fred Hill, S'toon
                          XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
                          "The Flying Pumpkin"

                          Comment

                          • TopCatGr58
                            Administrator
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 12650
                            • Portsmouth, Va.

                            #14
                            Relax Fred!

                            Hey Fred,

                            You did it correct. The thin edges do not meet, but are thick to thin! They are paired that way in the package as well.
                            T.C.
                            T. C. Gresham
                            81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                            79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                            History shows again and again,
                            How nature points out the folly of men!

                            Comment

                            • fredintoon
                              Master of XSology
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 6795
                              • Saskatoon SK

                              #15
                              So far, so good, but - - -

                              Hi Topcat,
                              thanks for that comforting thought but is it possible that Mr Stupid could still have gotten it backwards?
                              Should the thick edge of the outer pad be towards the front of the caliper or towards the rear?
                              Fred Hill, S'toon.
                              Fred Hill, S'toon
                              XS11SG with Spirit of America sidecar
                              "The Flying Pumpkin"

                              Comment

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