Nary again! (tires/balance)

[MAXIMAN]

For years I have suffered the brutality of buying tires at stealerships. It gets old spending $220 for a couple tires then having to pay almost that much again to have them mounted and balanced.

In the past couple years two sets I've bought out of 5 or 6 sets weren't even balanced properly and I had to take them back.

Add to that the pain of having to set up an appointment and put up with all the questions like "Whaddaya riding that old thing for? Are ya sure ya wanna spent $350 on a set of tires...heck the bike ain't worth much more then that."

Then a bike like my ZRX eats 180/55-17 radials like a 3 year old through a bag of M&Ms. As you know a ZR radial for a sportbike aint cheap.

So I mounted and balance my first set of tires today. It wasn't much harder than doing it on a bicycle! I can't believe I've been suckered into paying people to do this.

First I bought two pieces of equipment for my shop. A manual tire machine from Harbor Freight that cost about $100. Then I bought a static wheel balancer on Ebay for $65.

I first saw the balancer at the track one day. Some serious racers were balancing their tires with a very simple yet most effective device. It was an ultra-low friction static balancer. If you're not familiar with these things ...it is simply two ABEC 5 or 7 grade bearings mounted on a couple pieces of angle iron. Two assemblies are used. Then there is an axle with stainless steel cones that effectively clamp your wheel. The temporary axle and wheel are cradled in the two bearing stands on a level elevated surface (I used to saw horses). Then it is a matter of utilizing gravity and a few wheel weights. Utterly ingenious!





The guys at the track say this is even a better way to balance tires than computer spin or bubble balance. After today I believe them. It took a little longer for the trial and error process of balancing the wheels but boy did it work.

After a test run out the highway Zilla is smooth as glass...at any speed. I can't believe the difference and I will never take any of my bikes to a dealer for tires again.

BTW you don't really even need the tire machine from Harbor freight to mount/dismount the tires. This can be easily done with 2 or 3 spoon type tire tools and a rubber mallet. But you will need a way to break the bead on the tire. The Harbor Freight machine does have a bead breaker.

The most impressive part of this project was the quality of balance. It seems like everytime I get new tires they ride very good but they are not perfect. There is usually a little vibe at some speed. I guess the stealership doesn't spend much time getting it perfect...close enough works for them. However close enough doesn't work for me.

If this low friction static balancer is good enough for the boys that ride 130+ (speeds up to 150 or more) and they are satified I think it will work exceptionally well for anyone.

Cg

[mro]

Very cool!

How about a pic of the changer?


mro

[MAXIMAN]

Actually you buy the tire machine for like $49 and a motorcycle attachment for another $49. The pic shows the motorcycle attachment on top.

[81xsproject]

Okay, so maybe I'm a little slow. How does it work? Do you just give it a little spin and let it settle out with the heaviest side at the bottom and the stick a guesstimate wieght at the top?

[MAXIMAN]

XSactly!

Like I said it takes a little time and practice but man the result is well worth the effort.

Actually a "little spin" is too much. I mean you can breath on it and it will roll to the heavy side.

From my limited experience so far... some where between 3/4 oz. and 1.5 oz is all ya need. Placement of the weight is most important.

Once I think I have the wheel close to balance I will place the weight at 3 O'clock or 9 O'clock position. If the wheel move very little then I'll try it at other positions. If it still doesn't move much then it's there.

[pggg]

The Michelin Macadam 160 radial on my XS is amazingly tough, I can't believe how well it's wearing, it seems to be lasting longer than the Conti Tour crossply that was previous. Yep the best motorbike shops do the balancing and fitting for free. They get their money from the tyre. If I was buying soft sporty radials I'd be tempted to rig up the gear but once every year or two for tyre changes won't be worrying about it. Tried removing and fitting a tyre with spoon handles and never again...

[MAXIMAN]

I've had guys tell me the Cont-tours are one of the best for grip AND wear. I'll be trying those next.

I've had good luck with the Avons though..can't complain.

[prometheus578]

"Round and round we go"(again!)

Some people just don't understand the concept. (and if anythings unbalanced, it's me)

I can't believe I've been suckered into paying people to do this.

No, Maximan, you weren't suckered. You were paying someone to do work that you wouldn't (or couldn't, at the time), do yourself. Now you have the bead breaker, tire spoons and a balancer. Ok... how long did it take you to remove, remount and balance one tire? Twenty minutes? Half an hour? How about both tires? Have two bead locks on the rear tire? (And for people who bring their bikes to the shop[not just the wheels] to get new rubber mounted, how long does it take to jack up the bike, remove the calipers and brake stuff, etc, and then reassemble?) Sure... it's not hard, just takes time. And time costs money. The time that it took you, is time that it would have taken the mechanic. What's your time worth?

Yep the best motorbike shops do the balancing and fitting for free. They get their money from the tyre.

Depends on the shop and how they pay their mechanics, Pggg. Most mechanics are paid by the job. (If he bills a customer for three hours work... then he's earned three hours pay, etc)

Parts Clown: "Hey Kurt, I just sold a guy two tires. He wanted them mounted for free, so I said OK. How soon will they be done?"
Prometheus, the Magnificent: "They'll be done just as soon as you get your Goat-smellin' A$$ back here and do 'em for him.
(Yeah, I did the guy's tires for no charge to him... but I had the shop pay me for my time) (Parts Guy only lasted another three weeks)
On the other hand, some shops pay their mechanics hourly(like my current regime), so I really don't care if they charge for tires or not. I get paid either way and my dogs don't starve.
(Guy rolled a tire into the shop today, wanted it balanced.
"What's this gonna cost me?"
"You gonna stand there and watch over my shoulder while I do it?"
"Umm.. errr..no, I guess not."
"Good, then I won't charge you anything."

On a happier note: Maximan, the little square weights with the adhesive backing work the easiest. Just make sure the rim is clean. I don't care what anyone says... I've never had my weights fall off.
Put the wheel on the balancer. Then jamb one or two weights in the thread area till it balances. This gives a general idea of how many weights you'll need to balance it. Clean the rim area well and stick 'em in place. We use a similar style balancer at work. Takes all of five minutes to do, if that.
As for Conti tours... I finally wore out my back tire... probably had over fifteen thousand miles on it, so I can't complain about that. I will never buy them again, and I told the Parts Guy not to sell them, as I've had nothing but trouble when it comes time to mount them. On some bikes... no problem, but for some reason, on my XS's, I just can't get the silly things to bead right. I worked at a shop that only stocked Continentals, and it was one problem after another with them. (No tire machine... it was all spoons and a rubber mallet. And after a coupl'a hours of mounting and remounting... ya just want to sit down and cry. (Mount those bastards for free? I don't think so!)
Stick with Bridgestones or Dunlops (Other people's opinions of Conti's may differ. I can only report what I know. They wear and grip fine, as far as I'm concerned. It's the mounting that you may be happy to pay someone else to do for you)

... some where between 3/4 oz. and 1.5 oz is all ya need.

Depends on the tire and the style of the rim. Sometimes you get a no-weights balance, sometimes you really gotta pile them on there

[MAXIMAN]

Pro

The problem I have with shops is the amount they charge.

I have watched them and it take about an hour to mount and balance a couple tires. They are setup for it and they get it done pretty quickly.

Where I live they charge $50 to 60 per tire (no matter how long it takes...flat rate) to mount and balance. So that's $100 to $120 per hour. If I buy the tire form them it is still $40 per tire.

I don't mind paying people to work. I've been doing that for 30 years in this business. What I don't particularly care for is getting charged two hours for one hours labor. Especially unskilled labor.

If I were paying a mechanic $75 an hour to run valve clearances, synchronize carbs, or split cases that wouldn't be so bad. There is a degree of technical skill involved in those jobs.

But to charge $75 an hour for mounting and balancing a couple tires is absurd. You can train an APE to do the same job. I know from experience...I did the job... (read "I am not much smarter than an APE).

I don't expect to get "free labor". Generally you get what you pay for. But recently concerning tire balancing I've been paying for some of that "free labor" and I'm tired of it. Especially when I ride a bike from Oklahoma to California and I have to put up with the little buggy vibration for 4,000 miles.

Last but not least...money isn't the only issue. As a matter of fact money is really not much of an issue for me at this point in my life. But job quality is. I am tired of riding away from a dealer ship with two new tires and a $330 invoice...only to discover two miles down the road I have to go back to have them re-balance the tires. Then some 20 year old punk behind the counter argues with me that the tires ARE balanced.

Honestly I would prefer to PAY some one else do it. But when ya pay 'em and they still don't do it...as John Wayne once said "I AIN'T PAYIN 'EM FER THAT!"

[MAXIMAN]

Re: "Round and round we go"(again!)

Originally posted by prometheus578
Have two bead locks on the rear tire?

I suppose you are talking about rim locks?

For anyone who knows...do all tube type rims have rim locks /bead locks?

[strom]

Nope... just the ones that would otherwise spin the rim inside the tire and brake off the valve and make a mess with too much horsepower. :P

LP


PS: I forgot what we discussed a couple years back about plugging the rim lock holes and instaling tubeless tire without a tube.... I am thinking safety here too, not being cheap so much. Catastrophyc failure and all that crap.

[Pat Kelly]

Only dirtbikes (some) and big-power streetbikes. Actually my E was the only streetbike I've ever noticed with bead/rim locks.
I bought a later model 17" XS rear rim that is marked "tubeless". I still have the original rim with locks sitting in the shed. Not sure what Iam going to do with that one.
My 78 CB400 had tubes and no locks

[MAXIMAN]

I bought a couple rims on Ebay from a XS750. Trying to get a tubeless 18" rim. The ones I got have no rim/bead locks.

But they also have no stamp stating "suitable for tubeless". So I suppose they are not safe for tubeless. However one of them had a tubeless tire mounted on it. But I'm sure it was just some ignoramus unknowingly risking his life.

[MartyA]

My buddy charges USD $10-15 depending on his mood to mount and balance mine. So I get the best deal for tires on the internet let him do the work. He charges me the same whether I take the wheel off or not.

He uses almost the identical balancing setup as Maximan, and I have never had a problem.

I just replaced my rear - 5th! - tire on the FZ - 2 fronts and 3rd rear. 9,000 miles.

I have heard no complaints about the Harbor Freight tire changer. Folks over at the FZ forum like it.

[prometheus578]

"Anyone remember 'Ape Man', by the Kinks?"

I agree with what you say, Maximan. It's just that I see things from the other side of the service counter.
Yes, you can train an ape to change tires... But what does the ape do for the other seven hours in the day when there's no tires to change? Trained apes still cost the shop money. Sure... the shop can use the old tires to make 'tire swings' for the ape to keep him amused, but in the end, it all comes down to the bananas.
Most shops can't afford simian service men, so it's left up to the mechanic. Which means that he has to stop work on a job that's earning him money, to walk over and do a job that really isn't. From a customer's point of view,"So what?" But from a mechanic's point o' view, it's just another non-profitable interuption.
And how much to charge for it, and still be fair to the customer and the mechanic? Not all tire jobs are the same.
"You charged me an hour to change my tire, but last week my buddy had his done and was only charged 15 minutes!"
Corrosion on the rim, rim locks, tire not wanting to bead, saddle bags to remove and re-install, pull the muffler off so the axle can slide out, chain driven; so that has to be re-adjusted, etc.
(The guy with the Goldwing w/ sidecar quit griping about the bill when he saw his rig dangling from the forklift... with me laying underneath it, swearing like a ring-tailed lemur!)
About the only thing that can be done when mounting tires is to charge one set rate, whether it takes five minutes or fifty.
The 'trained ape" at the shop this summer was my son. He'd do my tire jobs, but I'd still have to stop what I was doing and walk over to reinstall the axle, brakes and such, for safety reasons.
Due to our great "riding season", Saturday was his last day, the service manager was layed off till spring, and the other mechanic will 'part-time' for a month and then be nonexistant. So now I'm "trained ape", and highly evolved "proto-human", all rolled into one!
(A rim lock is a wedge-shaped piece o' rubber that holds the tire bead against the rim to prevent it from spinning. A stud protrudes through the rim, and you tighten a nut on it to tighten the rim lock in place. The fun begins during mounting, as the tube expands and forces the lock against the bead, which pins it to the rim before the tire is fully seated. The more pressure you put in... the tighter it gets, and the bead refuses to move fully to seat itself. If you think one rim lock is a pain... try fighting a wheel that has two!)
(Can't understand the need to rebalance tires. Such a simple operation. They're either balanced, or they're not. Takes the same amount of time to do it correctly, as incorrectly)
But then again... due to irregularities in the tire or tread, a balanced tire can still cause a vibration. Tires that have sat on a rack in a warehouse, or on a bike that has been stored for a while can develope flat spots. Sure... they'll balance just fine, but on the road will still feel like they're square. Put your bike on the centerstand and spin the rear tire. The mass of rubber may be "balanced" to the mass of the rim, but you'll still see the center-line of the tire wander from side to side as it spins. Or jack up the bike till the tire barely touches the ground and give the wheel a spin. Watch the gap underneath the tire change as it rotates. There's your vibration. Wheel weights wont' change that.
(If that's the case, then the balancing "Monkey-boy" may have been more evolutionarily advanced than you gave him credit for, and you should send him a coconut or a shiney trinket)