Bad smoke

[Crazcnuk]

Hi there. I am new to XS1100s although I had a 650 Midnight Maxim back in the mid 80's. I had a 1985 Shadow 1100 for 14 years, and an '82 750 Virago now.

I just bought a 1980 XS1100 that sat for a few years. When we first looked at it, it started easily and idled just a little rough. It had a bit of smoke out the pipes, that looked more brownish than blue, so I assumed it was from sitting.

Well, as I drove it home it started to smoke (blue) worse and wrose until the bike lost power and I had to pull over. It wouldn't start, so we loaded it in the truck and took it home.

At home it started no problem with the battery charger to help.

I filled it up with fresh gas, and set about doing a minor tune-up. New plugs, adjust the cam tension, checked compression, put some diesel on top the pistons, to free up any stuck rings (after).

Compression was 145, 55, 75, 155, which is why the diesel to free up rings, hopefully.

While I was adjusting the cam tensioner, my nephew walked by and hit the starter, briefly, and I had the key on....

The motor turned maybe 1/4 rev and stopped. The cam chain had slipped several teeth...

I have been trying to realign the cams, I set the timing mark on F/T (tried C too) and set the little dots on the cams to the arrows on the brng cap.

The bike will not start. It spits out the exhaust and the carbs, but will not start...

Is it possible to get the timing out 180deg, like a car, or should it be bang on if all the marks line up? What's the chances I now have bent valves?


Thanks for any help you may have!

[TopCatGr58]

Hey CrazedCnuk,

Welcome to the Xsive world, sorry it's under these circumstances!

Well, after the engine was "bumped" and rotated, and the cam chain slipped, you should have NOT moved the crank or cams, should have unbolted the bearing caps, chain sprockets, and lifted the cams out, then turned the crank to the "T" position, and then replaced the cams, sprockets, aligning the Dots.

So....chances for bent valves are probably good!

The "T" mark indicates TDC for #1, and with the cams positioned with the dots up and crank at TDC, then you can't be 180 out!

You can try to align the crank and Dots, and then test your compression. You'll probably find one or more cylinder may now have "0" When you did your previous comp test, if you had squirted oil in and retested, you could have gotten better information which could have hinted better at whether the rings vs. the valves were at fault! You'll probably need to pull the head and inspect for bent valves though!
T.C.

[Ken Talbot]

Re: Bad smoke

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
...While I was adjusting the cam tensioner, my nephew walked by and hit the starter, briefly, and I had the key on....

The motor turned maybe 1/4 rev and stopped. The cam chain had slipped several teeth...

What's the chances I now have bent valves?

100% The only real question is how many.

That's a real drag. You might find some replacements for a reasonable cost, but don't forget about the $$ it may cost to have the valves and seats done in a shop if you do not have the required valve grinding technology yourself. Check your local shops. If you're looking at a 400 or 500 bill, you might be better off looking for a used motor.

[Crazcnuk]

I was pretty certain it was rings, I've seen them stick before, but not smoke. They did this BEFORE the valve bending event, however.

Generall, if the motor smokes on acceleration, which this one did, it's rings, if on deceleration, then vavle seals. I've just never seen one this bad.

If it's going to be a $500 bill, this baby will be going to the scrap heap. One, because I couldn't really afford what I paid for it, let alone repairs of this nature and two because any bike this unlucky isn't worth trying to drive!

[prometheus578]

If you can do the work yourself, you can save a bundle. (And it's not really all that hard, either. First off, try to line things back up again and do a compression check. Your earlier test showed #2 and #3 were ferschimmelled, but that could have been rings from sitting, or crap on the open valve faces. Either way, run another check and see what you have.

It spits out the exhaust and the carbs, but will not start...

Yup... sounds like you bent a few.
All work can be done with the engine in the frame, so that's a plus.
Gasket sets, ordered from a dealer... there's two that I know of: Athena, and Vesrah. One is about $109 and the other is $98, or so. (Just bought a spare set last week) Of course, internet might find something cheaper.
Valves you might have to search for, unless our local purveyer of parts has some handy, or a complete head available.
Mike's XS sells a "valve compressor" for $37 bucks, which is a real good deal, as you'll need one.
Gasket set comes with new valves seals, so you might as well replace all of them.
With the head off, you can see what the deal is with the cylinder walls, and /or pop off the cylinder and check the end gap of the rings, etc.
Ring sets I can't price for you.
Valves: No real need to take the head to a machine shop. Any used valves you get shouldn't really be that bad, and you might be able to get by just lapping them in.
So, all in all, you'll need a gasket set, a few valves, maybe new rings, a valve compressor and a few odds and ends. The biggest investment is time.

[Crazcnuk]

You mean unlike the GT-750 sitting next to it that needs a complete engine rebuild to replace some $5 seals on the crank?


I tried to check valve clearances and the exhaust valves were .178, .203, .178 and .203.

The intakes are like .996, 1.034, .635, 1.041 Seems awfully large to me!

I don't have a manual for this one, yet, so just shooting in the dark.

Part that ticks me off is that it ran yesterday, albeit poorly.

It needs other repairs as well, and I had budgeted for those, but to add this additional expense, I'm just not sure I should bother. I can keep riding the Virago.

[Pat Kelly]

Personally I would look for a replacement (used) head and swap that out.
That's assuming you have the time and/or inclination to do the work.
If you need to pay someone else to do the work then an XS1100 might not be the bike for you.
For cruising the Virago is a great bike (my Wife has one and she loves it). Performance-wise an XS11 will run circles around the XV.
You pretty much have to enjoy tinkering on your bike to keep your XS happy. Fortuately 99.9% is pretty simple stuff, just sometimes time consuming.

[Crazcnuk]

Well, I love tinkering on things. That was the entire reason I got this bike. It needs a lot of tlc, cosmetic wise. The fairing is very rough, but I found one for <$50 in good shape. It needs a rubber drive shaft boot, and a rear brake job. The saddlebags/trunk need to be refinished (Shoei) and the exhaust is a 4 into 1 with a car blue bottle muffler bubble gummed on. It was all hand painted, poorly. It has a custom seat that doesn't quite fit right.

I was hoping it would be at least ridable, though, so that I could put the Virago up for sale to fix the XS. It has been deteriorating faster than an ice cube on a hot sidewalk though.

I've just never had a vehicle, of any kind, that self destructed itself so easily.

I jujst don't have the money to rebuild EVERYTHING all at once.

[skids]

Yup, your intuition is right. All the intake valves are bent. It might be a good time to change out the cam chain as well. Read through the arcived posts and you will see a way to make your own valve spring compressor with a piece of pipe. Examine the piston crowns for holes or cracks. Lapping the exhaust valves and replacement intake valves using a hand tool is easy and effective.

Originally posted by Crazcnuk


The intakes are like .996, 1.034, .635, 1.041 Seems awfully large to me!

[strom]

OK, so it seems youre into some engine work.
While youre at it:
buy new rings, hone the cyls.
Get a new camchain
fix the head
replace the clutch springs with stiffer ones
if you get a cheap primary chain, change that too
if not... dont
check the gearbox if it needs a 2nd gear fix
change middle and final drive oil
tripple clean the carbs
sync the carbs
Twist the throttle and hold on for dear life!

LP

[Crazcnuk]

Lol, you haven't been reading, it's more like

Find a steep long hill that ends in a brick wall, tie a dummy on the bike, light it on fire and film it while it rolls down the hill into the brick wall.

Exactly for the reasons you stated, I am not inclined to take the head off, because once you do that the whole thing escalates into $1000+ job. I shouldn't have spent the cash to buy it in the first place, but thought I could sneak it through.

I have never had a japanese bike that required any serious engine work(except the GT-750 which still runs), and I've had lots over the last 30 years.

I've run a few to 70-90,000kms without ever having to do anything other than routine maintenance.

It is likely far cheaper to scrap this one and go buy another one, running and use this one for parts.

[pggg]

There's nothing to lose. Rip off the camcover. Tear out the cams. Haul off the cylinder head. Should take less than an hour. Assume the rings and pistons are O.K. They should be unless they got rust or something unusual. Splash out a hundred bucks or so on another cylinder head(valves and all) O.K O.K. - you've lost a hundred bucks. Throw the replacement head on. Your head gasket is absolutely re-useable. Hurl the cams back in. Get the cam alignment instructions from anyone here. Slam the camcover back on. Chances are it'll be a runner. Probably needs the usual carb tweaking too...

[JWSanders]

I agree with pggg, pop a new (used) head on and ride! There are 3 on Ebay right now for 99.00 or less, and others show up all the time. Patient auction watching can yield a bonanza, at times.

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...+cylinder+head

Andreas, a member here, may have one he can part with as well. He's usually VERY reasonable on prices.

Just make sure you get the same year head. You may end up with at most a coupla hundred more into it. And think of all the fun you'll have polishing the head and cylinders up before putting it on!

Shinnnnnyyyyy. MMmmmmmmmm

You know you wanna

[Crazcnuk]

Yes, that would be the way to go, but I have a problem...

Once I get an engine open, I see ALL the deficiencies/possibilities, and it cascades into a big $ job!

I know, I know, RESTRAINT!

but it's so haaaard.....

I've been looking, but there aren't any heads in my area. widening the search pattern as we speak.

[strom]

Well... I got my 78E for 350$, put another 4000 on it, gonna pick up another 500$ parts bike this weekend, that probbably wont be a parts bike, but another project if I get the paperwork sorted...


LP