Timing Pickup Question

[79XS11F]

AND IT CONTINUES .... I took 2 of the auto high tension leads and sliced them onto the single firing tower of the #1 & 4 coil. I did get signal on the timing light but the spark is weak and the bike would not idle. So one tower is not enough juice to run 2 plugs.
This is the BIGGEST HEAVIEST twin cylinder motorcycle I even owned
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Rob,

I don't recall you stating what Model# of ACCEL coils you put on this "heavy twin"? Did you get the kind that was for the Points system, needing the 3.0 ohms, or did you get the kind for the CDI system(Inductive) that only uses the ~0.7 ohms?! Just grasping at straws here?

Also, this 8mm wire that you have, is it solid wire core, or that fiber based core?? If fiber based, you need to get solid wire, and the NGK caps for that type!
T.C.

[79XS11F]

HEY TC .. The wire that came with the coils is in deed fiber based. I am now taking a break while my sodering gun warms up so I can attach NEW solid copper core wires to my old coils and install them using NEW NKG plug boots for that wire to see if it will run. I bough the coils that are for CDI system. that's what I was told I needed at the shop that sold me the coils.
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Aha, I see says the blind man!!!!

Well, that shop screwed up!!!! The kind you needed were for the POINTS system that uses the 3 ohms, not the Inductice/CDI system that only uses the 0.7ohms!! Good Luck, and good luck getting a refund/exchange on your new coils! The system you need is 20-309 .

Sorry I didn't think to ask that question much earlier in this thread, but thought you were the one that had asked about what type of Accel coils to put in, or had read the Tech Tips and found out beforehand!!! See, folks, we can't assume anything around here!!
T.C.

[79XS11F]

HEY GT I just hooked up the stock coils and the issue remains. :-(
1 and 2 not firing 3 and 4 OK. I just don't get it... I am at a complete loss now. If the pick up coils are sending the signal to the TCI box then I really am starting to think that the TCI box is not relaying that signal properly to the coils??? I just don't know anymore because this issue is across both circuits being that 1 and 2 are affected. Coils are part #1 11-07-140403

Rob

[79XS11F]

Checking the packaging here and the instructions say that 140403 are for 4 cylinder models with inductive non CDI type ignition. My mistake the coils are correct type. I have what should be good coils and the stock coils did not cure the issue.
I have new factory pickup coils and gaped them properly from the actuator.
I have bypassed the bikes wiring harness to be sure that there is no in harness wiring issue.

SO what else could be wrong that would cause this?
It would seem that ether the pickup coils or TCI box are at fault ???

Rob

[79XS11F]

ARE YOU READY FOR THIS ???

I took all the plugs out of the engine and much to my amazement I have SPARK at EVERY plug??? Not sure if it's a strong spark but there is sparks everywhere and they look to be of about the same strength.
NOW I'm real confused because the inductive timing light still only records the spark as being there on # 3 and #4 and yes I checked to confirm that the inductive pickup for the light is on the wires correctly.
Check out the PIC I just up loaded and tell me if you think the sparks seen in the PIC are good enough

http://www.frappr.com/?a=myfrappr&id=1618631

SO now one would in fact be inclined to think that the issue is in deed carbs .... but ..... if it's carbs why dose the issue move with the plug wire switch out with ether 3 and 4 or 1 and 2 not working ???

Maybe I should just DRINK the rest of the day away
Rob

[79XS11F]

Another note. Even with the plugs laying on the head the timing light does not see #1 and # 2 as firing but I can see the sparks?
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Rob,

Enjoy your drink, put the new coils on, and stop worrying about not being able to see the spark on your timing light. Below is a quote from this site describing different ignition systems, breaker style, electronic, Distributorless, etc.

http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecenter_encyclopedia_ignition.asp

Some popular systems use one ignition coil per two cylinders. This type of system is often known as the waste spark distribution method. In this system, each cylinder is paired with the cylinder opposite it in the firing order (usually 1-4, 2-3 on 4-cylinder engines or 1-4, 2-5, 3-6 on V6 engines). The ends of each coil secondary leads are attached to spark plugs for the paired opposites. These two plugs are on companion cylinders, cylinders that are at Top Dead Center (TDC) at the same time. But, they are paired opposites, because they are always at opposing ends of the 4 stroke engine cycle. When one is at TDC of the compression stroke, the other is at TDC of the exhaust stroke. The one that is on compression is said to be the event cylinder and one on the exhaust stroke, the waste cylinder. When the coil discharges, both plugs fire at the same time to complete the series circuit.

Since the polarity of the primary and the secondary windings are fixed, one plug always fires in a forward direction and the other in reverse. This is different than a conventional system firing all plugs the same direction each time. Because of the demand for additional energy; the coil design, saturation time and primary current flow are also different. This redesign of the system allows higher energy to be available from the distributorless coils, greater than 40 kilovolts at all rpm ranges.

So....since you ARE seeing spark on both plugs, then you ARE getting spark in all four plugs even though your timing light can only see the signal coming from the Main Secondary coil wire that is in normal polarity, but not from the secondary plug wire that is working in reverse polarity!

[79XS11F]

OK so I will indeed put my new coils back on and remove my bypass harness and be content that I have spark everywhere. SO what should i be looking for now because the bike is still misfiring??? If it carbs it's still a RICH condition but everything with the carbs looks normal and good.
Any ideas.
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Recap what's been done fuel wise!

Okay, you dunk/soak cleaned the carbs, but have since checked for vacuum leaks around the butterfly shafts=none! You have a vacuum gauge set, have synched the carbs. You removed the Dial-a-jet system. You're running 4-1mac with no baffles. You've reset the floats. You said you turned the pilot screws out an extra 1.5 turns to get the bike to idle! How many turns out total are they? The vacuum slides are not sticking, no holes in the diaphragms. You stated that your plugs were black on 3-4, but thought it was due to poor spark firing, which you/we have beaten to death and proved that it's not the problem.

You stated you replaced ALL of the jets. What brand jets, or kits did you use? K&L are known for being the wrong sizes, too rich!! Aside from testing for leaks in the butterfly shafts, have you checked for leaks at the intake manifolds where they mount to the engine? Also, have you checked for exhaust leaks where the header pipes fit the head?
T.C.

[79XS11F]

Re: Recap what's been done fuel wise!

Originally posted by TopCatGr58
Okay, you dunk/soak cleaned the carbs, but have since checked for vacuum leaks around the butterfly shafts=none! You have a vacuum gauge set, have synched the carbs. You removed the Dial-a-jet system. You're running 4-1mac with no baffles. You've reset the floats. You said you turned the pilot screws out an extra 1.5 turns to get the bike to idle! How many turns out total are they? The vacuum slides are not sticking, no holes in the diaphragms. You stated that your plugs were black on 3-4, but thought it was due to poor spark firing, which you/we have beaten to death and proved that it's not the problem.

You stated you replaced ALL of the jets. What brand jets, or kits did you use? K&L are known for being the wrong sizes, too rich!! Aside from testing for leaks in the butterfly shafts, have you checked for leaks at the intake manifolds where they mount to the engine? Also, have you checked for exhaust leaks where the header pipes fit the head?
T.C.

Correct I replaced all the jets with aftermarket kits I got on e-bay. When I had the carbs off the bike yesterday i confirmed that the jets are labeled as being the same sizes as factory. i do not know what brand they were and don't have the packaging anymore. Carb to engine boots are new and were put on the engine with a thin coating of RTV gasket sealer. I sprayed a fair amount of quick start all around the carbs yesterday when I put them back on the bike and no change.
I just finished putting the new coils back on the bike and returned everything to the way it was before I parked it for those 4 days while waiting for a tire.

i can start it and it will run on chock but not without. I t still misses and is very rough running. I set the floats at 1 inch from the gasket surface without the gasket in place. If I recall the setting is 1.012 inches? I would have to grab the manual to confirm this.
I put the idle jets back to 1.5 turns out from lightly seated. They were at 2.5 prior to that.
My gut feeling it that it is too rich. What else could cause it to run too rich. I say too rich because the plugs are black .. right

Did you check the pic for an opinion on spark strength?

Rob

[pggg]

79, the centrifugal advance unit, have you stripped it and checked it? Probably clutching at straws too, but my XS did the same once. Running on 2 cylinders on and off no matter what the hell I did. Didn't make sense. Turned out it was the brass 'axle' that the relucter spins on. It was cracked clean in half - but the relucter was still spinning, and only getting the occasional signal from one of the two pick up magnets. Threw in a spare centrifugal unit and she ran like a dream.

[79XS11F]

Originally posted by pggg
79, the centrifugal advance unit, have you stripped it and checked it? Probably clutching at straws too, but my XS did the same once. Running on 2 cylinders on and off no matter what the hell I did. Didn't make sense. Turned out it was the brass 'axle' that the relucter spins on. It was cracked clean in half - but the relucter was still spinning, and only getting the occasional signal from one of the two pick up magnets. Threw in a spare centrifugal unit and she ran like a dream.

I'll check it tomorrow morning. Question.. How would that affect the signal is that not just a bushing? I mean if the thing is rotating properly what difference would that make?

I think tomorrow I will remove the carbs again and replace all the jets with the ones that came with the bike. I still have them but they need cleaning.
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Rob,

The photo of the spark was a bit difficult to tell, was a bit out of focus and pixellated. I was surprised that you were actually able to get a shot of it, must have taken you several attempts to get your "timing" right to be able to catch it!

Putting the old jets back in is a good idea, especially the pilot jets. I'm hoping you'll be pleasantly surprised when you put them back in! Many others who had bad fouling plugs experienced the same improvement once they went back with the OEM or Genuine Mikuni jets!

Then, once you've got it running right, and are not fouling or carboning up plugs, then you can probably reinstall your Dial-a-jet system, since it is supposed to work on upper throttle levels, not during idle!
T.C.