ACHTUNG!: Alka-Seltzer recommended

[BLUEJEEPLAB]

I have been pretty much Republican since my early twenties, but it's getting hard to follow along with some of the things going on, eminent domain to increase the tax base, foreign control of crucial infrastructure, money to every freaky cause from the the Taxpayer's wallet, legislating from the bench. Libertarianism is looking better and better...

And back to the original thread, You have to admit, the Democrats have pretty much cornered the market on Wierdos setting the tone. Sure the GOP has Pat Robertson, but...

And Max and Mike, please feel free to disagree, but like the Lounge title says, keep it civil... We are all friends here, bound by the Mighty XS

[MAXIMAN]

Blue,

Libertarian has looked good for years for several reasons. Only one thing that really bothers me about them is they are isolationists to the tee.

Isolationism will not work in the post modern era. It is simply foolhearty to think otherwise.

Another fact is this: The Libertarians have never put forth any "electable" candidates. Alot of their candidates are so hung up on issues like the prescribed "isolationism" that they pull no support on a grass roots basis. If we had isolated our selves during WWII we'd all be "sprockein ze duetch" if ya no whada mean.

This eminent domain abuse MUST STOP. one of the founding principles of our nation is individual property rights...something the extreme left doesn't recognize. Of course they wouldn't...they are socialist. Even Hillary said in her book "We are waging a war against individualism..." Now I don't know about you guys...but that pisses me off. The mere idea that woman would utterly disregard indivual rights and freedoms in order to implement her utopian ideas is not only sick...but may...just may constitute treason since it flies in the face of the constitution...the very document she swore to uphold taking the oath of office.

This eminet domain thing must be over-turned and over-turned now. But look who voted for it on the court. That tells the real story.

MRO - I not sure how Exxon-Mobil pays their taxes. I have a good idea though.

In 1984 the tax code was radically altered at the expense of our domestic petroleum industry. It became so punitive for big oil corporations to develop oil and gas reserves in the continental US that they simply packed up and left. I'm guessing much of what they profit today is overseas and may not even be taxable here. That's no ones fault but Reagan-Bush(41) and the democrat congress at the time.

Little guys like us did not have that option. We did not have the capital means to simply pack up and leave. If we were going to stay in the business we had to stay and tough it out.

I can tell you how our little 6 man enterprise has paid taxes for the past 15 of 20 years. We had to borrow the money to pay our taxes....seriously. We literally had to go to the bank on several occassion to pay taxes. that is absurd.

Of course for the past three years or so we've actually been able to pay Uncle Sam. But we incurred a huge debt for the prior 15 years. Of course this is really none of your concern. I only tell you this so you may realize this oil biz crap ain't a bed of rose petals...it's more like a bed roses...with thorns.

Add to that he fact that the price of oil and gas dropped from almost $40 per barrel (1981) to $15 by the mid-late 80's and I can tell you it was approaching chinese water torture. We really had to alter our business model...RADICALLY...just in order to survive. Exxon just exited stage left....or is that right?

I could write a novel on this business but this is neither the time nor place.

Suffice it to say one major reason we went from importing 20% of our oil needs in the early 80's to the mess we are now in (importing 65 to 70%) is because post 1984 drilling activity came to a screeching halt.

good day gentlemen.

[MAXIMAN]

Originally posted by BLUEJEEPLAB
IAnd Max and Mike, please feel free to disagree, but like the Lounge title says, keep it civil... We are all friends here, bound by the Mighty XS

True that. If I sounded a bit acid tongued I apologize. I just get a bit weary of hearing the same old drum beat about "big oil".

First and foremost I am not Big Oil. I am little biddy tiny oil.

But I can tell you I wished Big Oil would come back home....and explore here...at home to develop reserves stateside. But until they are given some incentive I really don't see that happening.

One more thing that is a HUGE hinderance. Another entire book could be written on this subject. But it concerns environmental regulation. In short it too is so punitive and exposes companies to so much risk it simply doesn't make economic sense for them to operate here.

Yet another reason we are depending on oil from places that don't have over bearing environMENTAL regs.

[xs650mike]

I don't hate corporations, just the ones who're ripping us off. Just because I express one opinion Cody it doesn't follow that I agree with everything that's said by every wacko that calls himself or herself a Democrat or even that I am a Democrat. None of the so-called "party leadership" in either party speaks for me or even most of us. If I hear one more politician or pundit say, "The American people want blah blah blah...", I'll puke.

Whoever wrote that silly book with the squirrels certainly isn't doing the Democratic party any favors. Gotta be a spoof putting on those idiots in Hollywood. Let's see, there's Jeanine Garafalo and Goldie Hawn to name a couple of the more brainless ones. They'd take that book seriously not realizing the irony. Squirrels are those suicidal things that run across the road in front of cars. I saw half dozen of them squashed on the road today just riding 15 miles into town. Just removed 3 sets of incisors and a couple of tails from my deck. The not-a-demo-cat is getting fat on those stupid things. Squirrels do share their stored food because they're too stupid to remember where it is so they just eat whomever's falls readily to hand.

[trbig]

Sigh..... This thread makes me realize the intellegence of whoever it was that said not to discuss religion, politics, or abortion.
Anybody want a beer and talk about Yammer Hammers?



Tod

[Dan Hodges]

Re: don't like it...

Originally posted by mro
Point was ALL named politico's in news article have same position. From wacko Kennedy to Bush.

Seems to me no matter who's "running" the country, we end up w/same results.

Out of curiosity, where do the BIG oil corps get the money to pay the taxes that they do pay


ALL ABOARD,
trains gota keep moving



mro

What result's are you looking for? Gas is cheap here and the Federal tax is nil compared to England,Germany and France.Oil is a popular commodity and every one loves it so it's only natural some body is going to make money making and selling it.The Arab's have got the bid on the port's because no American company wanted them and business is business.All Arab's are not s--- head's and whether we like it or not we live in a global economy.The port's had been managed by an English company and nobody said diddly,but now Hillary is beside herself and oh dear what shall we do?The U.A.E. gave one hundred and twenty five million dollars to the Katrina relief fund,more than all the other foreign countries combined.You guy's have beat this to death so I will not elaborate on what you have already said,however life is good for most of us and every body want's to come here so it cannot be all bad.Monday past was president's day and if you study them all,they all had lot's of problem's even T.R. himself.There was a C&W song by Merle Haggard who just happened to be from the great state of Oklahoma that bemoaned,"are we rolling down hill like a snow ball headed for hell" and I say the good times are not over for good, but have only just begun.Tomorrow I will buy gas for $2.09 a gallon,how sweet it is living in America.Yep,Shell will get some more of my money and Uncle Sam will get some more of their's,isn't capitalism nice.

[Dan Hodges]

Originally posted by MAXIMAN
Blue,

Libertarian has looked good for years for several reasons. Only one thing that really bothers me about them is they are isolationists to the tee.

Isolationism will not work in the post modern era. It is simply foolhearty to think otherwise.

Another fact is this: The Libertarians have never put forth any "electable" candidates. Alot of their candidates are so hung up on issues like the prescribed "isolationism" that they pull no support on a grass roots basis. If we had isolated our selves during WWII we'd all be "sprockein ze duetch" if ya no whada mean.

This eminent domain abuse MUST STOP. one of the founding principles of our nation is individual property rights...something the extreme left doesn't recognize. Of course they wouldn't...they are socialist. Even Hillary said in her book "We are waging a war against individualism..." Now I don't know about you guys...but that pisses me off. The mere idea that woman would utterly disregard indivual rights and freedoms in order to implement her utopian ideas is not only sick...but may...just may constitute treason since it flies in the face of the constitution...the very document she swore to uphold taking the oath of office.

This eminet domain thing must be over-turned and over-turned now. But look who voted for it on the court. That tells the real story.

MRO - I not sure how Exxon-Mobil pays their taxes. I have a good idea though.

In 1984 the tax code was radically altered at the expense of our domestic petroleum industry. It became so punitive for big oil corporations to develop oil and gas reserves in the continental US that they simply packed up and left. I'm guessing much of what they profit today is overseas and may not even be taxable here. That's no ones fault but Reagan-Bush(41) and the democrat congress at the time.

Little guys like us did not have that option. We did not have the capital means to simply pack up and leave. If we were going to stay in the business we had to stay and tough it out.

I can tell you how our little 6 man enterprise has paid taxes for the past 15 of 20 years. We had to borrow the money to pay our taxes....seriously. We literally had to go to the bank on several occassion to pay taxes. that is absurd.

Of course for the past three years or so we've actually been able to pay Uncle Sam. But we incurred a huge debt for the prior 15 years. Of course this is really none of your concern. I only tell you this so you may realize this oil biz crap ain't a bed of rose petals...it's more like a bed roses...with thorns.

Add to that he fact that the price of oil and gas dropped from almost $40 per barrel (1981) to $15 by the mid-late 80's and I can tell you it was approaching chinese water torture. We really had to alter our business model...RADICALLY...just in order to survive. Exxon just exited stage left....or is that right?

I could write a novel on this business but this is neither the time nor place.

Suffice it to say one major reason we went from importing 20% of our oil needs in the early 80's to the mess we are now in (importing 65 to 70%) is because post 1984 drilling activity came to a screeching halt.

good day gentlemen.

Let's not jump to quick on this eminent domain thing,we just might have to give St.Louis back to the Indian's.Okay, so the Indians would not want it back because it's such a s--- hole,what about your fine back yard!

[mro]

"Shell will get some more of my money and Uncle Sam will get some more of their's,isn't capitalism nice."

" I not sure how Exxon-Mobil pays their taxes."

The consumer pays taxes.
And property tax is paid by both land owners and renters. (part of there rent)

So if you want to tax a corp. that provides a commodity that all must use, the consumer is the one you actually pays the bill, the corp. just passes it along to the gov.


mro

btw
My XS 80G kicks A$$ since I put new springs in the clutch the other day

[xs650mike]

Death & Taxes

Hey let's not tax the oil companies at all and gas will be cheaper! Yeah, that's the ticket, just do away with government and there'll be no taxes at all. Think that's called anarchy. Of course then we'd just have to pay tribute to whatever warlords that'd spring up. Unless of course one is a warlord!

Heard some disturbing economic news on the radio yesterday. Even with the booming economy most Americans owe so much money that their net worth is going down. Seems we are just like our government, we spend way more than we take in. The exceptions are those few who own their homes free and clear. Those folks' net worth is going up. Nice to know my net worth is going up (as long as the real estate market keeps going up). I still have to pay those nasty property taxes though.

You can't take it with you, might as well spread it around a little. Sort of like those fuzzy squirrels!

[MAXIMAN]

I know you're just razzing me Mike. And you know I don't mean for "oil companies" to be tax exempt.

Thirdly I don't want you to think I was complaining about the 1984 tax reform, just stating fact. It radically changed the face of exploration in the USA. And IMO it fueled the flames of foreign dependency.

I am not sure what the answer is to getting oil and gas exploration "re-started" in the US but If we are ever going to break free from the strangle hold our adversaries have on us (read oil dependecy) we are going to have to implement some strategy to produce more oil domestically UNTIL said time we can get off oil all together.

I am naive enough to think in theory we can do it. It will take a combined effort of conservation, alternative sources (wind, nuclear, etc) and...last but not least...more domestic oil production. It won't be cheap either. The US simply can not produce oil domestically as cheap as OPEC. Just like the US can't produce cars as cheap as Korea or clothes as cheap as Pakistan.

So I fear Dan's assesment maybe right. It's called free market capitalism. People are going to buy the least expensive energy they can....and ya can't blame them.

Nice discussion guys. Now go fill your tanks so I can "pay my taxes"!

[Pat Kelly]

Maybe we're using all "their" oil until "they" run-out. THEN we'll have all the oil and can sell it for even more than "they" currently do.

And any costs that a business incurs (business tax included) is passed along to the consumer. Cut too deep into the profit then there's no point in doing business.
Price of gas goes up, so does the price of lettuce. Sun and water still cost the same.

[MAXIMAN]

I gotta feeling water maybe going up in the near future.

Why?

T. Boone Pickens has been buying up water rights all over the place. I think he ownes nearly all the water rights in the Texas panhandle

In the near future it may cost more to wash the thing than it does to ride it.

[JWSanders]

I've always treated myself as an outside observer to the political process. I stopped getting argry about it a long time ago. To me, it's a waste of energy. I try to focus on things I have some measure of control over. Bitching about something I'm not willing to do anything (productive) about is counter-productive to happiness. I too tend to favor a Libertarian stance, at least inasmuch as wanting a smaller government. It seems to me though that the Libertarians are just another extreme in a different direction. There has to be a balance between all of it, and I wonder if we'll ever find it without tremendous social upheval. I really doubt it. The further we head towards socialism, the harder it will be to get rid of it. It may already be too late now.

To me, getting mad at a corporation for making money is like getting mad at someone for breathing. It is the reason for their existence. Everything has a cycle of life, and "Big Oil" will live through its just like all the others. We've already had big steel and big telecom, and others, and all the corruption that came with them. If money is involved, there will be corruption....at least, as long as humans are involved as well......

If you want to make a wish to change human nature, might as well throw in one for winning the lottery, too. The odds for doing either are probably pretty close to being the same.

When we finally do make a shift to another energy source (and we WILL have to, eventully), big oil better be using all that money they're making now to develop the new infrastructure. It's going to be a big job.

Most people really dont understand how well we still have it here in that respect though. If we were paying the taxes that most European countries pay along with their gas (in order to feed a mostly-socialist infrastructure), you'd really be screaming about the price.

In 50 years it'll prolly be "big data". I'd rather have anything other then "Big Government"

[xs650mike]

Originally posted by MAXIMAN
I know you're just razzing me Mike. And you know I don't mean for "oil companies" to be tax exempt.

Thirdly I don't want you to think I was complaining about the 1984 tax reform, just stating fact. It radically changed the face of exploration in the USA. And IMO it fueled the flames of foreign dependency.

I am not sure what the answer is to getting oil and gas exploration "re-started" in the US but If we are ever going to break free from the strangle hold our adversaries have on us (read oil dependecy) we are going to have to implement some strategy to produce more oil domestically UNTIL said time we can get off oil all together.

I am naive enough to think in theory we can do it. It will take a combined effort of conservation, alternative sources (wind, nuclear, etc) and...last but not least...more domestic oil production. It won't be cheap either. The US simply can not produce oil domestically as cheap as OPEC. Just like the US can't produce cars as cheap as Korea or clothes as cheap as Pakistan.

So I fear Dan's assesment maybe right. It's called free market capitalism. People are going to buy the least expensive energy they can....and ya can't blame them.

Nice discussion guys. Now go fill your tanks so I can "pay my taxes"!

Well I happen to live in a state that is pretty much self-sufficient as far as oil goes. The oil companies have actually shut down refineries to keep the gas prices up. Whenever the price goes down too much they export gasoline and dump it in foreign markets. There's plenty of oil and refinery capacity here but we pay way more for gas than say people in Missouri. And it's not just the hight taxes in California, that's only about $0.13 more than the rest of the country. I'm not really angry about it, just stating the facts as I see them.

Yeah, good old big steel. I remember when President Ike kinda stepped on them for the good of the country. Don't think Bush'll do anything about oil profiteering though. Eisenhower couldn't pronounce nuclear either. Now I notice other folks are starting to say "nucular" to so as not to embarrass the president. Sorta like the Spanish who adopted a lisp so as not to embarrass a king who lisped.

[Pat Kelly]

The person who put an "S" in the word "lisp" was just mean.