Ah-nold

[mro]

All it will really take is an individual charismatic enough to convince them they alr

In a major surprise to me Russia sorta changed government w/o a bloody revolution.

There ain't no way in He!l a so called democrat or republican will ever relinquish their "right to rule" with out a force of arms. Will never be a "reality government" in the USA. Too many of us (me included) believe in our government enough even to vote.


mro

[xs650mike]

A nation of sheep

Yeah mro, when are people gonna wake up and serve notice on these jerks that they work for us. Even Grover Cleveland beats any president in recent memory. And congress is an even bigger joke.

[mro]

A nation of sheep

more like lemmings
headed over a cliff




mro

[trbig]

So TC.. lemme get this right... If I'm riding my bike at a suicidal rate, while smoking a cigarette down a multi-lane road, in a torrential downpower ready to drown me, and thinking homicidal thoughts about the Jacka$$ that just cut me off... I have a bettter chance of meeting the grim reaper? lol... just checking.

Tod

[Dan Hodges]

Re: A nation of sheep

Originally posted by xs650mike
Yeah mro, when are people gonna wake up and serve notice on these jerks that they work for us. Even Grover Cleveland beats any president in recent memory. And congress is an even bigger joke.

The GNP in the U.S. is the world's largest,the economy grew at a faster rate than any of the industrialized nation's,gas is much cheaper than most any place except Saudi Arabia,there were more new millionnaires made in the U.S. in 05 than any other country(Forbes Magazine),home ownership is at an all time high,taxes are lower than most country's in Europe and people are coming here from eastern Europe in record number's,not to mention the hordes from central America,so it must not be to bad or they would be stopping off in Germany and France not here.Of course thing's could be better, but they are not as bad as you suggest.The fact's do not support your comparison of Grover Cleveland to all President's of recent memory.You imply that a big scandal is ready to break,what exactly are you referring too, as I try to stay on top of the situation,but I could have missed something.You can serve notice on the people in government by voting them out of office and choosing someone of your political persuasion.Not a bad system I would say.You might ought to read about Roosevelt's communist infested cabinet and how they allowed the nuclear secret's at Los Alamos to be given to the Russian's,(Klaus)the enslavement of eastern Europe due to the treaties of Yalta and Potsdam,Roosevelt's girlfriend in Warm Spring's Ga.I have a laundry list of every administration since Washington,so give me some fact's not open ended accusation's.

[xs650mike]

What a great bunch we are!

One thing I'm noticing on this forum is how just civil we are to each other in our postings. I'm always apprehensive stating a strong political opinion on a motorcycle forum since we are all over the map in our politics and most of us are pretty strongly opinionated. On other forums I've seen folks get downright mean and nasty over what are after all just opinions, no one's really got a total lock on the truth. In the past I've been called both a right-wing nut and a pinko communist wacko and I've seen others called even worse names. So far I've seen none of that here and it is truly refreshing. Would that the folks in congress were as respectful and polite to each other as this bunch of XSives. Our country would be way better off if they were. Name calling and finger pointing are not legitimate argument and do nothing to further advancement and learning. I want to extend a big thank you to those who think my opinions are all wet for not calling me any names and to everyone here for being so doggone civil to each other.

[xs650mike]

Well Dan I do get a little excited sometimes since I don't see many in the federal government whom I respect. Senator McCain is one that I do respect since I see him as one whose motivation is to do the right thing while the bulk of the others seem only interested in raising funds for reelection or setting themselves up for a cushy non-job after they're out of office. I have no quarrel with our system of government since it is evident that despite its flaws it is still the best on the planet so I would definitely agree with you on that count. I do think that in our system people get the government that they deserve. I have the feeling that most people in this country are either not paying much attention or they've become too cynical to care. We all need to get out there and vote. I think we probably both feel the same way about that whether or not we agree on other matters.

As for the scandal, I don't know that a break is imminent but it will come eventually. The rumblings are already there if one cares to pay attention to them. The plight of Tom Delay and the lobbyist flap is one facet. The huge deficit and the peril it puts our monetary system in is another. The no bid contracts in Iraq and the huge amount of money being spent on these with little apparent result is another. The private sector's performance there contrasts sharply with our military whose performance in Iraq has been superb despite the lack of sufficient personnel and proper equipment.

This thing with our southern border is something on which we probably can agree. Control of our borders is vital to our security and is something our politicians are loathe to address no matter their political persuasion since it involves doing the right thing even though it may alienate a constituency. President Fox has publicly demanded that we provide well paying jobs, health care and education to citizens of Mexico that come here illegally. Why hasn't our president publicly demanded that Mexico respect our laws as we respect theirs? Why has he not chided his buddy Fox to do something for the betterment of his citizens' lives so they don't have to leave their homes and come here just so they can feed, house and clothe their families? Where have the oil profits from Pemex gone? Pemex is owned by the Mexican government and is supposedly the property of the citizenry, why do they not benefit? The argument that we need Mexicans to mow our lawns and trim our hedges is just silly. Don't know about where you live but in my neighborhood most of the lawn care people (one a good friend of mine) are Americans, there are 2 "Mexicans" who are actually citizens, not illegals, so they too are Americans in my book.

[trbig]

Since our southern border is so loose, how many al-qaeda operatives do you think are pouring in. They watch all the flights.. so why not pay someone a few hundered bucks to sneak them in from the south?
As for President Fox, I agree... pay for the illegal immigrants, then send him the bill. They are his people after all. If his country was run worth a &*%^, they wouldn't be coming here. I can't honestly say that I blame them. But it does irritate me to no end when I have to decide if i want to hear something in English.. or Spanish. I'm like... WTF... what country is this? I hate that we have to bend over backwards to accomodate everyone. You want to come to America... fine. Learn the language, pay the taxes, and go by OUR rules. Don't like it? Go home. *Stepping off soap-box.

Tod

[JWSanders]

Originally posted by trbig
Since our southern border is so loose, how many al-qaeda operatives do you think are pouring in. They watch all the flights.. so why not pay someone a few hundered bucks to sneak them in from the south?
Tod

You can bet they are, too. One thing they have is patience. They will wait until we get lax again (and we WILL) and then they'll strike. Count on it.

Our own freedoms (and the drive to preserve them) make it all too easy. Eventually we will declare the war on terrorism won. In a generation, it will be all but forgotten. Then we'll be an open target again. You can bet the Arabs won't forget though...they hold grudges that span generations.

It really strikes at my duality on the issue. I value being free from an oppressive government, but on the other hand I see the need for an intelligence gathering operation of some sort and the need for it to be effective. They are two mutually disagreeable concepts. We're seeing right now in Iraq what bad intelligence can do for you.....just like we saw on 9/11.

Everything political is cyclic. You will have one party's rule for a period of time, then the other party which works mostly to reverse the acts of their predecessor. It's a clearly visible pattern over the last 40+ years especially. The next administration (which I believe will be democrats, unless they try to run a flop like Kerry again or god forbid, Hillary Clinton) will very likely reverse or remove many of the policies that Bush has made in the arena of national security. Many will see it as necessary (to preserve "freedom"), and applaud it. Like everything else, it will likely go to far, leaving us less secure then we need to be. And eventually, just as uninformed as we were on 9/11.

It's a political cycle that needs to be broken, but sadly probably never will.

[Dragonrider]

(shrugs)

They know where I'm at.

(crosses arms)

Bring it.

[DiverRay]

I'm with you Dan, let them come and find out about those of us who own firearms, and have been HIGHLY trained on their use
Ray

[xs650mike]

Originally posted by JWSanders


You can bet they are, too. One thing they have is patience. They will wait until we get lax again (and we WILL) and then they'll strike. Count on it.

Our own freedoms (and the drive to preserve them) make it all too easy. Eventually we will declare the war on terrorism won. In a generation, it will be all but forgotten. Then we'll be an open target again. You can bet the Arabs won't forget though...they hold grudges that span generations.

It really strikes at my duality on the issue. I value being free from an oppressive government, but on the other hand I see the need for an intelligence gathering operation of some sort and the need for it to be effective. They are two mutually disagreeable concepts. We're seeing right now in Iraq what bad intelligence can do for you.....just like we saw on 9/11.

Everything political is cyclic. You will have one party's rule for a period of time, then the other party which works mostly to reverse the acts of their predecessor. It's a clearly visible pattern over the last 40+ years especially. The next administration (which I believe will be democrats, unless they try to run a flop like Kerry again or god forbid, Hillary Clinton) will very likely reverse or remove many of the policies that Bush has made in the arena of national security. Many will see it as necessary (to preserve "freedom"), and applaud it. Like everything else, it will likely go to far, leaving us less secure then we need to be. And eventually, just as uninformed as we were on 9/11.

It's a political cycle that needs to be broken, but sadly probably never will.

I'm having a hard time understanding just why the president ordered those wiretaps without seeking warrants which I have no doubt would have been forthcoming. He has stated that he needs the ability to act quickly and in secret and that he is acting within the law. The very law he cites allows him to order the wiretaps instantly provided he runs it by a judge in the secret national security court within 72 hours after the fact. This seems a reasonable compromise to me in that it doesn't totally negate constitutional protections while still preserving the president's ability to act quickly and quietly when the situation calls for it. Yet he refuses to submit to secret court approval even after the fact despite the fact that he is giving his opponents ammunition with which to attack him. I realize that the president's lawyers are telling him he doesn't have to but Nixon's lawyers told him he could cite "national security" and "executive privelege" to keep his transgressions against the Constitution secret and we all know how much those lawyers' opinions turned out to be worth. Some of them actually went to jail. Nixon's Attorney General John Mitchell would have been one of them if he had lived long enough. Clinton also tried the "executive privelege" and "national security" squelch and it didn't work for him either. If we imagine the citizenry to be like a rider and the government like an XS11 on which the twistgrip doesn't control the engine and the brakes don't work we can see why the framers of the Constitution set it up so that each of the 3 branches of government keep a check on the other 2. It has to work that way or the people will lose control of the country just like a rider would just find himself along for the ride with no control whatever. The balance of forces creates a stable machine which is the United States Government.

Administration defenders have cited Abraham Lincoln's suspension of certain provisions of the Bill of Rights as a precedent but the present situation is not at all analogous. Had Lincoln acted otherwise the nation would have completely come apart at the seams, there were draft riots in places like New York City. If the administration is able to use Lincoln's unconstitutional actions as a precedent this might mean it could suspend freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom from unlawful search and seizure, freedom of association and freedom of assembly. Just because Lincoln did it, it doesn't follow that President Bush or any other wartime president can. The War On Terror is nothing like the Civil War. The WOT is fought against an idea, not an army. Despite the casualties we took on 9/11 and the casualties we are taking in Afghanistan and Iraq the WOT is small potatoes compared to the Civil War. The Civil War not only was on our soil but was savage almost beyond all comprehension, far more so than the Iraq War. In one day, in one Civil War battle alone, the United States Army lost 50,000 men which compares with Army losses for the entire Vietnam War. One day, one battle, in a war in which, as Lincoln remarked sadly, both sides prayed to the same God that they be allowed to prevail. As Wes Sanders has just pointed out, the Wahabi fanatics are in this for the long haul, we will be defending ourselves against these maniacs for at least the next few hundred years. I'm not ready to throw out the Bill of Rights just yet because these nut jobs may attack us from time to time. We are taking more casualties from criminal activity at home than we are from the Iraq War, should we throw the Bill of Rights in the trashcan just so we can fight crime?

The leadership of both of our major politcal parties has been taken over by the ideological zealots at their fringes and we are starting to see signs that the public is getting frustrated by this. I believe the majority of us whether registered as Republicans or Democrats are fairly close to the center, at least this is the sense I get from talking to my friends, neighbors and acquaintances. Whether Republican or Democrat most of us want pretty much the same things for our country and ourselves and there is a frustration with the performance of our political leaders. Polls indicate that most people in this country believe politicians as a whole to be dishonest and untrustworthy. It would be great if a huge block of voters just went and voted for an entire 3rd party ticket, it wouldn't really matter much which one, it would really get the major parties' attention and maybe things would start to change for the better. My preference would most likely be Libertarian but I won't hold my breath waiting for the public to wake up and smell the coffee.

Politics is about compromise and many of our leaders seem unable or unwilling to do that which has a tendency to paralize things. I remember Secretary Rumsfeld remarking to a reporter at a press conference, "War isn't tidy." Neither is politics in our republican democracy but it has gotten us by for well over 200 years and with a little care and attention it should get us by for many more years.

[xs650mike]

Originally posted by DiverRay
I'm with you Dan, let them come and find out about those of us who own firearms, and have been HIGHLY trained on their use
Ray

I may not be all that HIGHLY trained but I can sure put rounds on a target. Forgot to mention in my previous post that highly important thing in the Bill of Rights called the Second Amendment, something about our right to keep and arm bears.

[prometheus578]

"Sticks his nose in...."

Gentlemen, I'm amused... yet saddened.
Please do yourselves, and others around you a favor. Before reaching a conclusion or forming an opinion that you're going to try to defend with great emotional vigor, turn off the TV, do a little honest research, question everything that you think you know, and analyze the sources of information that you used to form your beliefs.
If you believed that they "hate us because of our freedoms"... I understand that you're doing the best that you can with what your God has given you.
If you want to believe the profferred 911 scenario that a jet liner with a 200+foot wingspan and a tail section four stories high neatly folded itself up and completely disappearred into a 16 foot hole at the Pentagon, that is your right. (The wall collapsed afterward)
If you want to believe in Al-qaida world domination conspirators sitting in caves and that it took a great mastermind to plan and carry out 911, please recall that a few months later a mentally unstable teen in Florida stole a private plane and slammed it into a Bank of America building. Great mind, he.
Nothing in history or politics happens by chance, and to believe anything else is insulting.
For the price of a few thousand lives in a couple of tall buildings... look at the profits made.
"No one I know will die... my sons aren't going to get maimed in the desert... but if all it takes is killing off a few thousand useless eaters to increase my portfolio and pad my corporate retirement fund, by jingo, I'm gonna do it."
What everyone fails to realize, is that not everyone on this planet thinks like they do. What may be repugnant behavior to you and me, is actually a way of life for others. Why is that guy rich, when you and I struggle to scrounge XS parts? Because he has a ruthless, selfish desire to succeed, grab power and money at any cost. We mistakenly believe that no people think like this... just because we don't.
I play chess.... because I like to move the men around" sums things up nicely.
Don't forget that the Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown at the behest of the Dole Fruit Corp, or our imperial rumblings in Central America, overthrowing governments and setting up friendly dictators when United Fruit Company bought off congress. Doubt this? Look up the meaning of the term Banana Republic. Better still, read twice Medal of Honor decorated General Smedley Butler's paper 'War is a Racket".
Afganistan? Don't make me laugh. The first thing the Taliban government did when they took power ten years ago was to destroy all the opium producing poppy fields. Funny, since we took power there and set up our puppet regime... they've had the biggest bumper crop of poppies in thirty years! Lot of money to be made there for someone, huh?
Recall in the 1900's when the Dowager Queen closed off China to the outside world. Seems she didn't like the British East India Company bringing in opium from India and Afganistan to trade with the tea merchants. Nine out of every ten Chinese was addicted at the time. Brought out the Marines and armies from eleven nations to retake control of the Chinese ports, etc. Read up on the Boxer rebellion. (Rightous Harmonious Fists)
Funny thing, Afganistan. Backward little place... till the discoveries of the Caspian Sea oil and natural gas reserves. Ten/fifteen years ago, Unocal paraded a guy named Hamad Kazai(sp) in front of congress, and urged them to "militarily persuade" Afganistan a little to allow them a pipeline across to the sea. No go. Hhmm, funny, but guess who now leads the puppet govt. we set up there? Yup... our old friend, Hamad Kazai, and the three permanent bases we've built are right along the route of the old proposed oil pipeline. Recall that the Taliban offered to turn Bin Laden over to a neutral court/country, which we obviously said wasn't good enough. (No reason to invade if they did that)
History.... to understand the past is to predict the future.
"Oh, those poor Russians! All their news is censored and their movie are pure propoganda." What... like ours isn't? Been to a movie lately? Watched TV lately? (I already know that answer)
What's that great new movie.... "Poke-Back Mountain"? Ever see a horse with a broken back? Sort of curves the spine downward and forces the rump upward. Yup... that's the origin of the "Happy" sexual term "Broke-back mounting". Funny how your views have been changed for you. Scant few years ago you would have been repulsed by what you see on the TV today, yet now you accept. Can't recall the name of the network exec., but his comment on shaping opinion and culture was," If they can't shut off the shower, they at least will soon get used to getting wet."
Forget the "Maine" and Hearst's "Yellow Journalism"? "You supply the headlines, I'll supply the war."
Propaganda, pure and simple, to bend the minds and attitudes of the equally pure and simple. WMD... Sadaam's kid putting people into industrial meat grinders... Iraqi's pulling Kuwaiti babies from incubators, Germans hacking off the arms of Belgian children... jews into bars of soap... Child molestation at Waco, Texas. ("We did it for the children") Americans don't get riled unless someone leads them by the hand or they get spoon-fed their opinions from TV.
"I trust Peter Jennings... 'cause it hurts to think for myself."
We hung people during the Nuremburg Trials for the T4 program. Yet, the German eugenics program was based on the American and English ones. Yes, the evil Germans euthanised or sterilized the mentally incompetant in the 1930's. They were so evil... yet here at home, we still did it; the last state to stop "Involuntary Sterilization" of the mentally handicapped was I believe West Virginia, and that was in 1976!
Any Oregonians with us tonight? Tell us about Oregon's recent Euthenasia law.
Sorry, folks... but everyone knows a lot about what they know a little.
Roosevelt and his commie cabinet! No, really? Hey, I got a president for you. Is it Roosevelt?
Doesn't drink nor smoke. Is a vegetarian. During the great depression took his country off the gold standard and implemented a system of international barter. (Beef from Argentina for machined goods from them) Made the international bankers crazy! (caused a war, it did!). Went from millions unemployed in 1933 to zero unemployed in I think 3 years. (Things got so good that they had to shell out money to import foriegn workers). Reduced the work week. Instituted worker's holiday trips, at reduced rates. Newlyweds got a loan for a house, each child born brought the loan down by a quarter. (four kids, no loan) The young looked after the old. Crime was almost non-existant. Built a highway system envied and copied the world over. Oh, I'm sorry.. that was Roosevelts rival.
Here's an interesting comparison: "Perhaps nothing better illustrates the differences between Axis and Allied leaders than a comparison of gifts they exchanged during the war. On the occasion of his 59th birthday, in 1942, Mussolini received from Hitler a beautifully bound, complete set of the works of Friedrich Nietzsche, the great 19th Century philosopher. In that same year, for his birthday, Roosevelt sent Churchill a case of bourbon."
Ahh, history... ya got to love it.
Have I missed any topics still?
Immigration and politics? Boats of Cubans we turn back, but if they reach the shore, they can stay? What is that? Seems someone is concerned about the power of the Cuban voting bloc in Miami. We had a president that pardons and frees Puerto Rican felons and terrorists so his wife can get to be a senator, riding on the votes of the Puerto Ricans in New York. New York/ Arkansas... I don't get the connection. He was "The Education President", yet Arkansas only ranked higher than Hawaii in educational achievement! My own state, the sovereign State of Washington's Governer's election. Guy wins, but the loser says "...it was too close to call, do a recount." More votes miraculously appear and a recount is done. She still loses, and says "...that it still wasn't accurate enough." Recount again, this time with more votes from felons and the dead, she now wins... "Well... we counted votes three times now, let's stop wasting the tax-payer's money." What a system!
Voting... are you kidding me. Considering some of the choices people make concerning what they wear, what music they listen to, what they watch on TV... I should have confidence in their ability to pick who should rule over me?
Democracy? I thought we were a Republic. A Constitutional Republic, or have we all forgotten? (Or been told lies for years)
I'll stop on politics, as I could write for hours.
Hhmmm... actually, I think I'll stop writing altogether for this evening, for if I'm not already banned from this site, I probably soon would be!
Don't ya just love when I start at one point and let the mind wander?
Shall offer a few quotes that I've aquired over the years to provoke the mind to thinking again for itself. (Unfortunetely, I can't give proper credit for all of them)

In short, there are very few who can think, but every man wants to have an opinion; and what remains but to take it ready-made from others, instead of forming opinions for himself?


"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
— Mark Twain


"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible."
— Bertrand Russell


1. If someone is called upon to learn something which contradicts what they already think they know, particularly if they are committed to that prior knowledge, they are likely to resist the new learning.

2. Counter-intuitively, perhaps if learning something has been difficult, uncomfortable, or even humiliating enough, people are less likely to concede that the content of what has been learned is useless, pointless or valueless. To do so would be to admit that one has been "had", or "conned".


Searching for the truth is ugly, frightening and dangerous
- and the only worthwhile choice.

I will now, for the future, confine my writings to mechanical problems, my inability to solve same, and the occasional obscure musical reference or quip.
("Geez, doesn't this guy EVER shut up?")

[prometheus578]

"Ill be back"

And to think that we have Arnie to thank for all this verbal madness!