Counter Steering

[JP]

Well I won't get into the math and science of gyroscopic motion and things like precession but I'll give you a word picture that might help.

Imagine that your front wheel at speed is like 2 dixie cups with the open ends glued together. So if the "wheel" falls to the left it will go left and if it falls right it will go right. No doubt you've seen a Dixie cup on it's side roll in a circular path. (This concept is designed to make you realize that the front tire on a motorcycle is not flat on the bottom like a car tire but rather round or perhaps a bit angular.)

Pushing on the left handlebar upsets the balance of the wheels' gyroscopic action and causes the front wheel to lean (strangely enough) left. Since the tire is like the above dixie cups, the fact that it's leaning to the left makes the bike turn to the left.

The reverse is also true (right turn) But none of this happens until the wheel has sufficient gyroscopic momentum to overcome the mass of the bike which is somewhere around 30 mph.

There are lots of factors involved that will alter the equation some including the profile of the tire, speed, balance of the tire, weight of the tire, weight of the bike, etc. But this is it in its simplist terms. HTH.

[Mike Hart]

There is a low speed at which it's really vague as to how to turn, where you're going slow enough that if you push the bar on the right, you will go to the left, but still lean to the right... it's a spooky kinda of place, that speed...

Going really slow < 2mph, yes, you turn the wheel left with the bars to go left. After 2 mph, this gets less and less true until at ?mph (guess it would depend on the individual bike/geometry) it is totally not true, and countersteering becomes totally the only way to turn.

The faster you are going the higher the gyroscopic and centrifugal forces, and the harder you have to push on the bar, and vice-versa - going slower, gentler steering input.

You can read about this until the cows come home if you search Google for precession centrifugal countersteer geometry rake trail etc

It does need to be second nature if you're too hot into a turn, you need to push on the bar to lean over further...keep head up, look thru the turn, push the bar...

So the best way to understand it is to practice it. To mentally understand it, it gets into bike geometry - rake, trail, tire contact patch, etc. Here is a link to steering a bicycle that gives a simple explanation.

Here is a link to a Tony Foale article about a rake and trail experiment.

[Dragonrider]

It's a gyroscope thing. Changing the angle of the wheel results in a force perpendicular (I think) from the direction of movement . . . the physics are real, my explanation may not be quite correct as far as the direction of the force.

The amount of force is related to the mass of the spinning wheel, the amount of deflection, and the speed it is spinning. The force is considerable. That is why it behaves differently at high speed than it does at low speed. Part of the equation is that there is lots of downforce (perpendicular to the road) on the tire from this also . . . thus the super-bike racing guys making corners at speeds and angles that are seemingly impossible.

You will not have to turn the wheel back at speed, it will be pushing against you. The harder you push, the farther you go over, if you relax, you stand back up. If you pull it back, you will stand back up faster.

Go practice it. The neatest demo I have seen was one of those super-bike racing videos. Lots of great close-ups in slo-mo and you could actually see the guys pulling/pushing the wheel opposite the turn. You could also see that the wheel was deflected opposite the turn. Pretty impressive.



I will be clear, if you are riding and can turn, you are already doing this to some degree . . . that is how motorcycles turn. Usually some aspect of your body language or unconsious movements is pulling/pushing the wheel in the proper direction.

The reason you need to consiously practice it is so that you can deliberately use it aggressively when the need arises. As I mentioned above, if you do not know and use this, when confronted with a "turn or die" situation, you are likely to jerk the wheel the wrong direction. Again, it is also common for folks that do not understand this to run off a corner that they entered a little too hot because they could not make the bike corner to its full capability.

Ride safe

[Scootstado2]

You do not push the right or left handle bar forward to turn you push down on the right to go right and down on the left to go left. At speed very little pressure is needed to turn, so little in fact that most people do not know they are doing it. I know it comes as a surprise to many but that's why K. Code built the "convincer" bike for the non-belivers to ride.

[beechfront]

tried this on my way home tonight.

countersteering = best motorcycle advice EVER.

[beechfront]

wow. just when you think you know everything.

i didn't until now have time to read the responses from JP, Mike, & Dragonrider.

it's guys like you that keep me modest.
thanks for the explanations.

[REFFI]

Countersteering

If moving at a walking pace you can turn a motorcycle by turning the wheel in the direction you wish it to go. At any speed where you have to lean the bike, you are countersteering. For a right turn, pushing on the right handlebar starts the front wheel to the left, increasing the friction of the contact patch, which causes the bike to lean to the right. Once the bike is leaned, you do have to straighten the wheel so that the bike tracks around the turn.

For example, lay a soft drink cup on its side and roll it. It rolls in a circle, right. That is because it is a section of a cone and wants to rotate around the apex of the cone. When you lean a bike over the profile of the tire is also like a cone The bike wants to track the circle. The further you lean, the radius of the turn changes.

[Dragonrider]

Originally posted by beechfront
tried this on my way home tonight.

countersteering = best motorcycle advice EVER.

Great! Very cool. Practice, and always keep learning. I am still learning myself, every day. Riding is part attitude, part skill, and part art.

If just one guy on the list that did not know before gets it . . . then it is worth all the trouble (threads/debate).

Shiny side up please!

[James L]

chickening out

Danny Meyer wrote:

it is also common for folks that do not understand this to run off a corner that they entered a little too hot because they could not make the bike corner to its full capability.

This was me about 2 years ago on my 82 gs650. I hadn't ridden in awhile, thought I knew the road, forgot just how hard that left was. Wasn't used to riding the 650. No real confidence in making the bike handle through hard corners. Ended up on side of road. Didn't take too long to low-side once I was off the road in the middle of a hard left. Bruised shoulder and ego, I got lucky.
If I hadn't chickened out, I could've made the corner with a little more aggressive handling. Hopefully I learned a valuable lesson that day.

Ride safely...

[Stray Bullet]

yep, it works... ;O)

on first reading, the whole countersteering arguement made little sense to me. once i tried it tho, i realized i had been doing it all along, i just thought of it as 'leaning'... making a point of paying attention to it does lead to deeper thinking. i'd like to hear more about digging deep into curves, however, as i certainly could use more experience/insight on that.

i'll be much more aware of it from now on. thanks for bringing the subject up, danny, and thanks to the rest of the listers for thier comments and insights.

[nashville_bill]

After reading here about counter steering, I looked aroung on the web and found a site that has all the info anyone would ever need - compete with a scientific model. While I was there, I looked at some of the other tips. Pretty well done.
www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

[Mike Hart]

Good one Bill, I added it in the Links forum.

[nashville_bill]

Dragonrider,

It's hard to admit, but after almost forty years of MC riding I didn't know how to turn. Tried it and feel that I am a much better rider now. It's like having power steering. THANKS!!!!

[Dragonrider]

It happens, if you have not been taught this or heard someone mention it (and tried it), you are unlikely to find it on your own even though you are already doing it to some degree. It is counter-intuative until practiced. Soon you won't even notice it, but will be a better rider for it.

Hence the reason for the original post. Glad you found your "power steering". Cool.

Keep the chrome side showing (up).

[JP]

Let me break in here to tell you about a feature of the forum which you may not have noticed. At the bottom of this page, you'll see a drop-down box that allows you to Rate This Thread:

Personally, I think this this thread rates a 5 but you can choose whichever rating you'd like. And you can do it for any thread you choose.