Some advice please (non- MC related)

[Bud Manley]

Hi, heres the situation.
My Calculus teacher yesterday at the end of the break stated that he was voting for Kerry in this election because of the Patriot act that says that the government can detain citizens of the U.S. for any length of time if they are suspected of having information on terrorist activities.
I said that that would only apply to non-U.S. citizens because they have no rights in this country.
He said I was wrong and that in order to go around that they had the authority to ship you out of the country where U.S. law would no longer apply.

The question is:
Should I pursue this?
I want to correct a misconception but My concern is that someone that would vote for Kerry would take any arguement of their position and use it to negativley effect my grade. I CANNOT fail this class. I also see a need to do the right thing.

This happened to me in my Ethnicity class where the grade was based on class participation and writing skills. I was very active in class and by far the most outspoken of the bull**** that the teacher was spewing about affirmitive action etc... I got nailed with a D in that class even though I did very well on written assignments and my class participation was easily the highest in the class. (class consisted of me and the teacher arguing over whether or not white people are bad and minorities are systimaticaly repressed)


1. I have a printout with me of the 6 page table of contents for the Patriot act.
2. I highlighted all the sections of the patriot act dealing with Severability, Mandatory detention of suspected terrorists and habeas corpus.
3. I read those sections
You can see the patriot act HERE
Please refer specificaly to pages 194-214 of the PDF file.
4. There is nothing in there about detaining U.S. citizens. As far as Non-U.S. citizens or Aliens it specificaly states that they may be held at the command of the Attorney General for a period of 6 monthes after which deternment may be renewed if belief of danger to the U.S. exists.
Only the Supreme court and federal courts near DC may review under habius corpus statutes the internment status of detainees. (Detainees being only aliens and specificaly not U.S. citizens)
the sections that interest me are:
Title I:
Section 2
Any provision of this Act held to be invalid or unenforceable by its terms, or as applied to any person or circumstance, shall be construed so as to give it the maximum effect permitted by law, unless such holding shall be one of utter invalidity or unenforceability, in which event such provision shall be deemed severable from this Act and shall not affect the remainder thereof or the application of such provision to other persons not similarly situated or to other, dissimilar circumstances.
section 102
section 106

Title II:
section 201
section 207
section 213
section 222, 223, 224, 225

Title III
sec 316
sec 322,323
sec 326
sec 361

Title IV
sec 411
sec 412 Mandatory detention writs. Read this one specificaly
sec 416

Title VIII
sec 802, 803
sec 808
sec 811, 812

Title X
1016

Can any Kerry supporters that know how to read show me in the act where the U.S. can detain U.S. citizens for an undetermined length of time?

[Winterhawk]

Do what BU$H did,


Lie, cheat, steal and buy your grades.

If you think Patiot act 1 was bad wait till you see parts of Patriot act 2 that the BU$H Regime will dump on us if by chance the murdering scumbag might steal the election again.


Don't blame my I voted with the majority of Americans in this Republic we are spose to be living in.

[randy]

Hey, Bud.

I'd rather ask the Kerry supporter a pointed question:

The Patriot Act has been in force since October, 2001. In the three years hence, cite one instance where a US citizen has been detained without due process under that statute?

Then I might believe it is a threat to my feeling 'secure in my person and property' as guaranteed in the fourth amendment.

By the way, in many cases, state constitutions supercede federal, (NY fo one) so much of this point is moot.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

-Benjamin Franklin.



Randy

[Bud Manley]

I found out a lot of interesting things about this subject. The detaining he was complaining about is actually part of a bill passed in 1984

" Laws enacted by the US congress are known as the "United States Code." TITLE 18 deals with "crimes and criminal procedure" CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE Section 3142 deals with the Release or detention of a defendant pending trial
LINK
Section 3143 deals with Release or detention of a defendant pending sentence or appeal
Section 3144 is very short, very ambiguous and deals with Release or detention of a material witness It was written in 1984 (I dunno, blame Reagan) If you want to pursue this with quality information Go here: http://www.findlaw.com/index.html?srchfindlaw type "material witness" and hit "search." "

(links provided by Long Isleand Bob hannity.com forumn"

[thumperjsa]

I thought I recall something about a citizen being declared and "enemy combatant" and under presendential authority through the Patriot Act, a citizen can be detained indefinetly. I will have to research that furhter though.

[Bud Manley]

Originally posted by thumperjsa
I thought I recall something about a citizen being declared and "enemy combatant" and under presendential authority through the Patriot Act, a citizen can be detained indefinetly. I will have to research that furhter though.

see:
Subtitle B--Enhanced Immigration Provisions
Sec. 411. Definitions relating to terrorism.
Sec. 412. Mandatory detention of suspected terrorists; habeas corpus; judicial review.

TITLE VIII--STRENGTHENING THE CRIMINAL LAWS AGAINST TERRORISM
Sec. 802. Definition of domestic terrorism.

Sec. 803. Prohibition against harboring terrorists.

The Patriot act is HERE HR3162

Its NOT in there. the remaining 90% of the act deals with communications interdepartmental/wiretaps etc.. and money laundering and seizuresetc...

There is Nothing that will allow them to hold a U.S. Citizen without overview of a court and that power (to hold a U.S. citizen) was given to them in 1984 by Reagan

[thumperjsa]

A number of bills designed to rein in parts of the act have been introduced in both chambers in the past year. The broadest of those bills is the so-called Safe Act (Security and Freedom Ensured Act) of 2004, the result of a left-right coalition critical of the Patriot Act and its impact on civil liberties.

Sponsors of the bills have little hope of getting committee hearings on their measures, but instead plan to build support for them during the coming year and to look for opportunities to insert their proposals into other bills that reach the floors of the House and Senate. But all of that could change, say aides and others, if the Bush administration loses in the U.S. Supreme Court this term. Two of the three pending terrorism-related cases deal with the power of the president to designate American citizens as enemy combatants, indefinitely detained and without certain rights. The third case involves aliens detained at the Guantanamo Bay naval base.law.com

Only two U.S. citizens—Hamdi and alleged "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla—have received the full "enemy combatant" treatment wherein they are locked up indefinitely without access to courts, lawyers, or charges. But thousands more have been detained as something just short of enemy combatants, on technical violations of immigration regulations once enforced with the laxity of traffic rules. There are now 11.4 million legal permanent residents in the United States living in perpetual fear that their status may be in jeopardy next. The government may not be shackling these folks and shipping them off to Gitmo, but it is threatening their liberty nonetheless.
slate.msn.com

You may also want to research the SAFE act which seems to be built to prevent the President from labeling an American Citizen and enemy combatant. Bush's advisors have recomended he veto this if it it passes congress.

[Bud Manley]

enemy combatant is not mentioned in the patriot act. If there were an option for him to use this label it would be listed. Can you tell me in what act this term is used

[Geezer]

Let it slide and save your grade. I made the mistake of insulting a prof's hero and being able to back it up and it dropped the A I should have gotten to a C. This prof was the most liberal woman at Portland state. It's just not worth it, even if you win, you loose.

Geezer

[gisleDK]

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
I can understand why some people think that the "PATRIOT" act (love that abbreviation) will increase the safety of American citizens. I just think that it's a step back for legal systems in the western worlds to jail people on suspicions alone.
Personally I just find it a violation of my rights, that whenever I go to the states, I have to give fingerprints and photos to the American government.
I think Geezer is right, it's just not worth it. If your teachers opinion means so much talk with him after the course, this of course would not help the other students, but might stop him from being ignorant again.

[Ralph Meeks]

Hey Bud, to answer your question.. Listen to Geezer. Drop it, be nice, smile at the guy and save the grade. The stakes are too high to fight this point with this particular person. As Geezer has said, even if you win you loose.

Good Luck in the class

Ralph Meeks

[chevy45412001]

imho

if you are truely innocent then you have nothing to worry about.

[jetmechmarty]

Hi Bud,

My limited knowledge tells me a university campus is not a good forum for conservative thinking. This is especially true when schmoozing liberal thinking profs for grades. I agree with those suggesting you stay quiet. Vote your conscience in the polling place.

[Bud Manley]

Thanks guys.

I just think that it's a step back for legal systems in the western worlds to jail people on suspicions alone.

To my knowledge this power has always been available. The police have always had the right to hold anyone for any reason without charges for 24 hours at which time they must either be charged or released. The patriot act changes this to 6 monthes for terrorism related charges but must still be ok'd by the courts.
6 monthes is not indefinite. In fact its finite.

[iron_llama]

I made the same mistake, arguing with a liberal prof... it cost me a full-ride scholarship and got me accused of cheating- I wound up quitting over the whole affair.

Listen to Sean Hannity's advice. When you know you won't prevail against a prof, parrot back the party line and get the grade you deserve. Listen to talk radio, debate in political clubs, write in your blog... basically educate yourself in spite of your prof. You know you're not going to learn anything worthwhile in such a biased class. Play the game, get the degree, and move on.