Anybody ever do any stoplight racing?

[crazy steve]

I doubt if it was that much; you can get a state-of-the-art motor for half that pretty easily...

[trbig]

On my trip down to South Padre Island, Texas, a couple months ago, I got north of Austin and was cruising in the fast lane. I heard a Harley coming up behind me. He went by me and cut right in front of me. He was the typical Harley idiot... leather vest, do-rag, ape hangars, something about "Banditos" and 1% on the vest. I was thinking it sounded like Doritos or something from Taco Bell for this wanna-be Hell's Angel or whoever he was trying to act like. Whatever.. never heard of them, so I got an open spot in the lane to our right and gunned it by him and pulled in front of him like he did to me. I didn't want to listen to those friggin' pipes when I'm trying to ride and enjoy myself! Of course he can't stand being behind the Jap bike, so he guns it and slowly creeps by me, giving me "The look", goes by the car in front of me, cuts in front of them and slows back down. I just shook my head, gunned it, and shot by him and laid on the throttle for a bit, getting some distance between me and this clown.

In just a bit, I could see him coming again. When he got to me, he was in the far right lane, giving it heck. He cut across 4 lanes of traffic, cut in front of me for a second, then cut back all the way across 4 lanes and took the exit. I laughed, thinking what an idiot.

Then I went home and read about who the Banditos are. lol.

[mjpxs11sh]

xs11

i considered my 78E w/ jet kit, air pods and a Kerker fast in the 80's. it was my first street bike and it was stolen by some Navy AWOL's.
then i bought my 81 Special and its def torquey, but not too fast.
my CBR1000F is a Sport/Touring bike. it wieghs the same as the xs11 but is a totally diff bike. i do consider the Honda has the comfort level i want and it is fast, but not a real crotch rocket.
i prefer the smoothness of the in-line 4 over a V-Twin on any machine, but they sure have lots a bottom end torque. ive had a V-65 Sabre, V-65 Magna and ridden a VFR-750. yeah, i always trusted Hondas and have had a lot of trouble free riding.

[mharrington]

My experience is Harley guys really aggressively bash non Harley bike riders. If I owned a Harley I would be the open minded decent ones (NOT a "Richard" Head)

Yes Harleys have a great history, look cool and sometimes sound nice...But you know what? The metric bikes from the 70s fill those bills as well- and are AFFORDABLE. For what I have in my 1100 I could not buy a Harley fender. I have a coworker who builds custom bikes with lots of $$$$$ in each. After his agonizing insults I told him that 95 hp from his 1900cc motor is a joke. My 79 XS1100 was rated at 94hp and the same year GS and KZ1000s were around 90hp.
If money were no object Id love to own a new bike for once. It would most likely be a big bore Triumph as the big Japanese 4 companies do not make anything that has that raw retro look. I like the XR1200 Harley- but wouldnt want to be lumped in with the "Look at what I just financed" crowd.

[T99Ford]

HD people are like every other group. I honestly find more brand bashing from the metric guys than from the HD guys. To be honest, most of the HD people I know don't have an opinion about metric bikes, an indifferent attitude seen by the metric owners as a form of 'hatred'. This is not true in every case to be sure, but is the most prevalent attitude that I have seen since running in both groups. I have brought my race Honda to the HD dealer on multiple occasions, and am currently working with them on getting a photo shoot of it using their facility and photorgraphers. It's not some much about the bike you ride as the way you ride it, I guess...but back on topic:

Be careful in your torque/ horsepower/ displacement arguments. It is true the HDs are almost all larger in displacement than the XS1100s. And the stock ones make around 20-25 horsepower less (1400cc Twin Cam specs). The Harleys in stock form make from 10-15 ft/ lbs of torque more than the 1100 does, at half the engine RPM. (I am comparing the 88b motor, since that is the one I have the numbers for in my head). What this ultimately means is that the Harley engine is performing the nearly same amount of work as the 11, but at half the speed as the 11. If your friend is making 95 hp with his 1900cc motor, I would guess that his making 100-110 ft/ lbs torque as well. This is nearly 40 ft/ lbs more than the XS11 makes. This coupled with a rate of work (horsepower) that is the same as the 11's crank horsepower means that he is not only doing 2/3s more work than the 11, but is doing it at the same rate as the 11 is doing its max work. His bike is significantly more powerful than your 11 is.

Of course the numbers above are all approximate, and just taken from websites published specs of each bike. The principles remain the same, though, and isn't limited to bikes. Another example would be a 6.7 liter New Holland tractor engine that makes 120 horsepower, but 3500# of torque. Any modern sportbike could post those power numbers, but probably couldn't even pull the tractor.

Howerpower and torque are similar ways of saying the same end result; namely, what is the rate at which work is done. If power is high but torque is low, less work will be done. If torque is high, but power is low, it will also be done slowly (as in the tractor, which utilized gearing mechanical advantage to achieve work).

Like I said earlier, where the HD's usually lose out to the 11 is in the area of weight. My softail is pushing over the 700# mark, solidly 100# more than an XS1100. That coupled to a slightly (but only slightly) less powerful motor (mine is stock) equals the performance edge of the XS1100 in acceleration and speed. But the Softail can push its huge mass around at fuel economy numbers that only the best running 11's can match, and do it all day thanks to its slower running (high torque) engine.

Two very different approaches and applications of motorcycle. I think a better comparison, motor-wise, would be the HD powered Buells--that show similar power and torque numbers to the Harley cruiser line, but the weight of modern class sport and sport/touring bikes.

[trbig]

OK.. compare it to a Sportster, or even the 1200 Nightster which are about the same weight range as the XS. My XJ beats them both... off the line, from a rolling first gear, whatever. The only thing they would beat me at was a top gear 60mph pull to pass without a downshift. If I downshifted, they lost again. If mine takes twice the rpm, so what if I'm still in the normal operating range? If all I cared about in riding was fuel mileage, I'd ride a moped.

The HD doing a job at half the RPM is a funny argument though considering the things are so so unbalanced. They simply CAN'T work under any normal motor's RPM range. It's a purposely out of balanced engine to make the now-not-so-unique SOUND that they tried to patent. They won't even publish their HP numbers because they're so dismal. Yeah, I know, refer back to your torque statement. They don't sell a good dependable motor, they sell an image, name, noise, and chrome.

So if you're happy with your two wheeled tractor/vibrator on the road, then I'm happy for you. I've been to many big bike rallies and the HD mentality compared to others' is part of the reason for my distaste of them. No, not every one of them is like that, but the overwhelming majority of the ones I have seen, along with those that won't wave, are the HD riders. What I'm not sure of, is which one of the group gives riders the worst image to the public... The HD riders that you pass and you can't even hear your radio in the car even though your windows are up, (Or constantly racking the pipes at a stoplight) or the ricers that do fly-bys on one wheel at 140mph?

[ViperRon]

I like all the stories but in reality today you really have to be careful and if you are going to try racing from a light be very familiar with your bike. The most time lost on a bike is take off where people do not have control of the power and back off some before throwing ithere is also when the front comes up and you are not positioned for it. If you find that balance in take off you can get most any in-experienced driver. If you have the take off down pat even the modern crotch rockets can be surprized but once he gets first wound out you are done. The other thing is always pick your spot because of the oil streak at lights it can be a real killer. Me if I have a little tar patch I pearch forward dump the clutch at 2500 with full throttle and after a breif spin the front is about 10 inches up no loss of time in take off and into second before the guy beside me gets out of first. Then if I know he's got me outpowered I just hit the brake and back off. Most times it eats them up inside because you really do not let them win.

However the tires go quick and the clutch better be good or you will be spending more time working on it than riding. Worse yet you do it at a light and some idot on his phone runs the other light and you will never ride again.

Be safe have fun and really look before you leap that police officer behind you has your plate on camera and a film for the judge and there really is no way to win that.

[T99Ford]

OK.. compare it to a Sportster, or even the 1200 Nightster which are about the same weight range as the XS. My XJ beats them both... off the line, from a rolling first gear, whatever. The only thing they would beat me at was a top gear 60mph pull to pass without a downshift. If I downshifted, they lost again. If mine takes twice the rpm, so what if I'm still in the normal operating range? If all I cared about in riding was fuel mileage, I'd ride a moped.

Now let's be clear. I wasn't trying to say the HD was pound-for-pound a higher performance bike, better built, or anything else--that is simply not true. I will be the first to admit that this is not the case. I am not sure by what mark you base your comparison of the 1200 Sporty, so I am guessin that it is from street racing one (or more). While your real world experiences carry weight, I tend to lean toward engine and machine data--simply due to how rider skill,variation, bike setup, and interpretation can affect perceptions. The 1200 sportster engine in the XR1200 pushes 90 horsepower, at almost 75 ft/ lbs torque, vs the 95 hp/ 67 torque of the 11. These numbers sitting in the XR that weighs 580 lbs ready-to-ride will close that gap. Given equal riders, I daresay the bike would give an XS/ XJ a desparate run for its money, and I'm not even so sure the HD would lose. Keep in mind that gearing and bike setup will affect street race perceptions as well, which can skew a street race. All I am saying is that better or worse is not the question--they are different engines, and perform differently, producing the same result with different personalities. In the end, ride what you like, but one does not necessarily 'outperform' the other, nor is one better than the other. I think this is especially true since the XR is probably the only Harley that kind of compares in specifications and intended use to the XS/ XJ bikes. Pointing out engine data and power descriptions here is simply a reminder to everyone to be informed...

The HD doing a job at half the RPM is a funny argument though considering the things are so so unbalanced. They simply CAN'T work under any normal motor's RPM range. It's a purposely out of balanced engine to make the now-not-so-unique SOUND that they tried to patent. They won't even publish their HP numbers because they're so dismal. Yeah, I know, refer back to your torque statement. They don't sell a good dependable motor, they sell an image, name, noise, and chrome.

Let me clear up a few errors here. Interestingly enough, the 88' Twin Cam series B motor actually runs a dynamic balancer--you can stand a nickel on the gas cap of this bike it runs so smooth. It even negates the butt killing RPM vibrations like are seen on the 11 at certain RPM ranges. Not really important, but good to know. And yes, even the balanced engines go 'potato-potato...

Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning as to the HD not being able to run under a certain RPM, but the main reason for the low RPM's is the design of the motor, not the balance characteristics. The long stroke and large bearing size at the crank require it--the horsepower loss being made up in aforementioned mechanical advantage of torque. Any long stroke motor is subject to these rules, it is not just a Harley thing.

Dependability is another misconception founded in the past incarnations of the HD. My own bike just turned 40K on the clock, leaks/ burns no oil, starts easily, and runs every highway trip out at 85 mph. I big bored a 88" A motor last fall with 25K on the clock with like new crosshatching on the stock cylinders, and no evidence of carbon fouling or even wear on the cams. Reports of 100K miles on a newer production Harley are not uncommon. I think that idea can reliably be put to bed as a past issue that is no longer current

Not gonna deny that Harley markets image, name, noise, or chrome...but as they say in business, if the shoe fits...


So if you're happy with your two wheeled tractor/vibrator on the road, then I'm happy for you. I've been to many big bike rallies and the HD mentality compared to others' is part of the reason for my distaste of them. No, not every one of them is like that, but the overwhelming majority of the ones I have seen, along with those that won't wave, are the HD riders. What I'm not sure of, is which one of the group gives riders the worst image to the public... The HD riders that you pass and you can't even hear your radio in the car even though your windows are up, (Or constantly racking the pipes at a stoplight) or the ricers that do fly-bys on one wheel at 140mph?



Good points here. I am fortunate to live in MT, where I think I am less exposed to the Dirt Bags on Bikes than are many in more populated areas. The "biker" culture is not my taste, either. I rides what I likes, and that is my Harley on some days, and my other bikes on other days. I am fortunate to be able to experience all of them for what they are, and that just makes it fun!

Oh, as an aside, some Harley ammo for you: Racking the pipes at a stoplight is not to be annoying--it's to keep the bike running... J/K of course...

[ddragon63]

or the ricers that do fly-bys on one wheel at 140mph?

Tod, I'm pretty sure XS/Xj's are ricers too... they are made in Japan!

wheelies on the freeway doing triple digits... those are what we call Squids. And yes them in board shorts, a wife beater, and chrome helmet w/green mohawk... do give the rest of us sport bike guess a bad rap. Just like the Super Biker doesn't do the HD crowd any justice. There's bad apples in every bucket.

Definition of a squid here http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=squid

[mharrington]

T99- my experience seems to whittle down to the one or two co workers who go out of their way to find me and brag about their Harleys and bash my old Japanese aluminum. I know Harleys have lots of torque and that a brand new 95 hp 1900cc V Twin will spank my old 1100. I just needed to say something to shut up a coworker (other than getting mad and telling him off). Once I mentioned the out put of the 78-79 XS1100 he was surprised that much power could be made by such a "small" engine. One thing I do get from males and females of all ages is: "You own a Yamaha, why dont you get a Harley?" That gets old and breeds a non Harley mentality in myself. Like I said- if I owned a Harley I wouldnt pull that separate parking bull crap and I certainly would not look down on anyone driving an old metric bike. And I am certain you are not at all like the guys I am ranting about so dont think Im including you and the open minded guys in my venting.

[T99Ford]

to "You own a Yamaha, why dont you get a Harley?"

This is the question I get the most tired of hearing as well, when I'm not on mine...Sadly, I think the general public os pretty much only aquainted with HD as the namebrand flavor. Kinda like John Deere in tractors or Heinz 57 for ketchup. Too look down on anybody's bike is in poor taste in my book for sure. I just want to make sure that it is a two way street. The folks on this forum have always been open to me and my bikes, which is can't be said for all forums around the interwebs, and I appreciate that. In the end, the important thing even beyond power is how well does your bike do for you what you want it to do?

Now back to racin'...

[XJfan1]

wheelies on the freeway doing triple digits... those are what we call Squids. And yes them in board shorts, a wife beater, and chrome helmet w/green mohawk... do give the rest of us sport bike guess a bad rap. Just like the Super Biker doesn't do the HD crowd any justice. There's bad apples in every bucket

Wow that was spot on I saw some dip stick do a 50mph wheelie on a crotch rocket and he a was wearing a red tanktop. And a helmet with a mohawk.

[hamjam]

Hey .....I have a mohawk on my helmet , but I am a very sensible rider

[mharrington]

I like to purchase the magazines that feature classic bikes. I believe they are published in the UK. I really would love to read the back issues of cycle world and Cycle Guide where they had a 1/4 mile shootout between the XS, KZ, GS and a big CBX. There is more to a bike than the 1/4 mile but lets face it- thats what gives the bragging rights to cars and bikes. I did read in a period article that when the 78 XS1100 throttle was rolled on hard in 5th the GS1000 had to drop a gear to keep up. Wasn't the XS1100 the 1/4 mile king for 1978? Who was king in 79? Thats when the CBX Honda and the KZ1300 inline 6 cylinders came out.