Home Electrician info needed!?

[crazy steve]

I'm just gonna assume there's another Don in this thread or you've confused me with someone else. I don't recall talking about breakers....

DGXSER is a Don....

[DGXSER]

I B Don.

I just decided to let this be a "we agree to disagree" thing. As reference to the AA poem, God granted me the wisdom to know the difference.

In the end the purpose was to help TC make a decision, which he made.

[ddragon63]

I just wanted to make sure I didn't nip too much nyquil last night and said something I don't remember.

[b.walker5]

Sorry Cy but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. We too allow homeowners to do their own work with the same conditions, i.e inspected and connected by a registered electrician, and in my opinion, and the opinion of most in the trade, it's the biggest fool of an idea since the left handed screwdriver.

Our registration board estimates 85% compliance with the test and connect rule and considers that acceptable, but that, by default also says that 15% non compliance is also acceptable. We say WTF. 15% of homeowners doing work that is potentially unsafe, and could cause loss of life and/or property it totally un-acceptable.

The 85% that do comply are required to have their work checked and signed off by a registered electrician. This requirement is extremely good at exposing the shortcomings of homeowner work. I could write a book on the number of homeowner stuff ups I've seen since this stupid rule was introduced here (about 15 years ago)

When we test and connect a homeowner job we are required to complete a CoC (Certificate of Compliance) which is a legal declaration that the work has been done correctly and is safe to connect and use. In signing the CoC we are accepting legal responsibility for the work and it's safety for the life of the installation. Very often the work involves cables installed in walls etc that have been lined and painted. We have no way of inspecting those cables to ensure they have been installed correctly and are not damaged, or joined, or likely to be damaged, yet we are expected to sign our names to a CoC that could bite us in the future because the insulation of a cable was damaged during installation and has caused a fire. Many electricians I know, including me, are refusing to sign off homeowner work unless we can inspect every aspect of the installation, which means we might as well have done the job in the first place.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but as you've probably guessed by now, this is a HB topic for me, and I make no apology for re-iterating my stance that untrained/unlicensed people should NOT be doing this work.

Life is worth more than the few bucks you will pay a sparky to do the job properly, and take responsibility for it.

[crazy steve]

Brian, you obviously have a very different inspection process...

I don't blame you refusing to sign off on someone elses' work, particularly with the penalties involved. I wouldn't sign off on work that I hadn't personally seen every last bit of....

We have dedicated inspectors here; that's all they do, and they work for the authority having jurisdiction, usually the state but it can be county, city or supplying utility in some places. 99% of sub-standard work you'll run into here is never inspected, bootlegged in by an amataur or 'maintance' man who rarely has enough training. Business has been fighting tighter standards for years, as they invariably cite 'higher costs' as the results of better checking and nobody wants to pay for it. It's all about money....

I heard a lot of complaints about the costs of permits while still working, but I know for a fact that the state loses money on every one they issue....

[cywelchjr]

Sorry Cy but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. We too allow homeowners to do their own work with the same conditions, i.e inspected and connected by a registered electrician, and in my opinion, and the opinion of most in the trade, it's the biggest fool of an idea since the left handed screwdriver.

Our registration board estimates 85% compliance with the test and connect rule and considers that acceptable, but that, by default also says that 15% non compliance is also acceptable. We say WTF. 15% of homeowners doing work that is potentially unsafe, and could cause loss of life and/or property it totally un-acceptable.

The 85% that do comply are required to have their work checked and signed off by a registered electrician. This requirement is extremely good at exposing the shortcomings of homeowner work. I could write a book on the number of homeowner stuff ups I've seen since this stupid rule was introduced here (about 15 years ago)

When we test and connect a homeowner job we are required to complete a CoC (Certificate of Compliance) which is a legal declaration that the work has been done correctly and is safe to connect and use. In signing the CoC we are accepting legal responsibility for the work and it's safety for the life of the installation. Very often the work involves cables installed in walls etc that have been lined and painted. We have no way of inspecting those cables to ensure they have been installed correctly and are not damaged, or joined, or likely to be damaged, yet we are expected to sign our names to a CoC that could bite us in the future because the insulation of a cable was damaged during installation and has caused a fire. Many electricians I know, including me, are refusing to sign off homeowner work unless we can inspect every aspect of the installation, which means we might as well have done the job in the first place.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but as you've probably guessed by now, this is a HB topic for me, and I make no apology for re-iterating my stance that untrained/unlicensed people should NOT be doing this work.

Life is worth more than the few bucks you will pay a sparky to do the job properly, and take responsibility for it.

You miss the point. Here even YOU a registered and licensed electrician can not connect the work or do the inspection. The inspection is done by the local govt inspection dept, and must be done whether the work is done by the homeowner, OR by a licensed electrician. It doesn't matter WHO does the work, the inspection requirements are the same, and frankly, even if all work was required to be done by licensed electricians, I expect that you would still have the same 15% or so that would do it themselves and break the law. Here when/if they catch them, they make it be torn out, and in some cases won't allow it to be redone. Not only must it be inspected here, you must get a permit before you do it in the first place. In some cases, you must do all these things to even put up a fence, and certain safety regs must be followed.

To follow up on this, when I was in Germany in the army, most german citizens were not allowed to work on their own vehicles, but had to have work done by a licensed mechanic. We U.S. and other foreign servicemen were exempt, and had to show our military ID's to even buy parts, because locals could not buy parts unless they were a licensed auto tech. This was done for the same reason as the electrical and the same reasoning could be used.

BTW, while I disagree to an extent with you, I do feel that ducking the legal requirements is pretty much a criminal act, as it endangers others. I understand how you feel, but this can be carried to every type of endeavor that involves safety and if carried to it's logical conclusion would prevent us from keeping these old bikes (and most old cars for that matter) on the road because it would either be cost prohibitive or impossible because there would be no licensed mechanics who would work on them and it would be illegal to do it yourself.

[b.walker5]

No Cy, I do see the point. Up until we allowed the homeowner exemption into our regs, and devalued our trade, we too had the permit and power authority inspector regime. Difference is that up until that point in time, homeowners wer'nt allowed to do any electrical work themselves, and there was a whole lot less electrical accidents than there are now.

I would love to have that system back, because what we have now is not an improvement. Its a backwards step that was taken purely to reduce costs for the power companies.

You're right about the 15% non-compliance, it would still happen anyway, and did happen in the past. Difference is that it was much easier to identify and police.

I could go on all day about this, and have been known to have some quite heated 'discussions' with our regulating body on the subject, so i'd better end this here before it gets messy...

[DGXSER]

Since we are off on this tangent, and apparently my direction to use a 30 A breaker caused it, I can tell you from every day personal experience that all the licenses, registrations, certifications and inspections that can be dreamed up do absolutely nothing to limit the amount of crap work that is done in Industrial, commercial, and residential situations.

I've been involved in the construction trades in one form or another since 1980. Over 20 years as an engineer, but not the ones that sit at a desk all day and make pretty papers, I design it and then go out and over see it being built. I've learned alot from the folks who do the install work. And I have seen some catastrophic mistakes made, even when I have asked them to confirm and sign on the line they checked the systems and have documented readings of the measurements they took (lies on paper really). I have been on projects where the inspector signed off, the licensed tradesman signed off. Then you go to start the equipment and a 400A 480V switch blows apart with me twenty feet away in the same room. Some days I wonder how I come home alive on a day to day basis. Like to know how often I find work not finished that has been signed off by the inspectors, and the contractor is walking away saying they are done? 15% would be a drastic improvement over my experiences. Recently started checking fire alarm systems, thank God most of them never get used!!!

And inspections are worth the paper they are printed on. There are some good inspectors, but alot of them ask me to confirm the systems work for them, or they know the company doing the work and sign off without looking. In ALOT of places around the country, knowing the right person gets you out of the inspections, or an exemption from meeting code.

So, no offense to the members here, but I firmly believe that the biggest complainers about people not having a license or certification or registration to perform work, are the ones trying to protect their work from other people doing it for monetary reasons. I see way to much proof that all those things do very little to improve the quality of the work being done. It all boils down to human nature, some people are diligent in their work, some are not. No piece of paper will change that.

[cywelchjr]

No Cy, I do see the point. Up until we allowed the homeowner exemption into our regs, and devalued our trade, we too had the permit and power authority inspector regime. Difference is that up until that point in time, homeowners wer'nt allowed to do any electrical work themselves, and there was a whole lot less electrical accidents than there are now.

I would love to have that system back, because what we have now is not an improvement. Its a backwards step that was taken purely to reduce costs for the power companies.

You're right about the 15% non-compliance, it would still happen anyway, and did happen in the past. Difference is that it was much easier to identify and police.

I could go on all day about this, and have been known to have some quite heated 'discussions' with our regulating body on the subject, so i'd better end this here before it gets messy...

Sounds like your regulating body decided to make you do their job. Not saying that YOU would do substandard work, but I'm sure some do. I do see your point, I think the part you're missing here is that we still have the permitting process here along with the regulatory inspection process. I think another difference here is that it's always been this way here. It's another part of our heritage, with homeowners often expected to be rather self reliant. Most of the large home improvement chains even have classes in the stuff, and all of them stress having a professional inspect the work when it's finished.

It sounds like over there they got rid of a couple of layers needed (permits and government inspection) to make the system work. I couldn't see what you described working from a safety standpoint long term even if done only by professionals, as you need that inspection layer and the permit layer helps make sure you get it.

[b.walker5]

I couldn't see what you described working from a safety standpoint long term even if done only by professionals,

Well, oddly enough, to the larger degree it does work, except the homeowner bit, but why it works is the real problem.

By removing the inspector and permit regime they put the onus squarly on the shoulders of the installing electrician (btw, some classes of work do still require inspection, but the inspectors are private electricians that have moved up the food chain) ad then set diferent grades of offence and penalty in place for getting it wrong, and a complaint procedure that allows anyone to lay a complaint without any real supporting evidence. We are then assmumed guilty until proven innocent.

A Grade 1 offence carries a maximum penalty of up to a $25,000 fine and/or 3 months imprisonment for an individual and up to $200,000 for a company.

It works through fear of getting it wrong.

And Don, i'm not sure if I should be offended by your reply or not, so I'll just leave it by saying that i've never really liked engineers... You've heard about the camel, right?? You know.. The horse that was designed by an engineer?

[crazy steve]

....You've heard about the camel, right?? You know.. The horse that was designed by an engineer?

C'mon Brian, they're not all like that; sometimes you get a horse...

But I've seen goats come out a few times too....

I'll add this to the perception that most tradesmen have of engineers...

You run into more that a few engineers who have virtually no appreciation for the difficulties sometimes found in converting their drawing into reality; it's usually in inverse proportion to their experience and competence. There are good ones out there, but they don't seem to be too common anymore. But I met one a number of years ago who really impressed me, but there's an interesting story behind him. We were installing some imported-from-Holland specialty equipment and the vendor sent a English engineer (their Dutch guys didn't have the language skills) over to help with the 'translation' to US code/specs. This guy was a joy to work with; explain the problem, he'd work with you to a solution. I asked him how he got to be so sharp and he explained that in Britain, in order to get a 'certificate' in a particular disipline, you had to take and successfully complete the trade apprenticeship course as well as the college courses before being allowed to practice. So it wasn't all 'book learning', you had to have 'practical' knowlege too. He was one of the best ones I ever ran into, and made me wish more than once that that was required here....

[DGXSER]

Brian, As an engineer I can say that there are some of us that resemble that remark. And I can also say with the utmost of confidence from personal experience that often time the engineer designed the horse, even put out the drawings and the specs to get the horse, but the contractor made their own "interpretation" and built the camel. That sword is defintely double edged!

[fredintoon]

- - - You've heard about the camel, right?? You know.. The horse that was designed by an engineer?

Hi Brian,
the true quote is:- "A camel is a horse designed by a committee."
FWIW, a camel can carry twice the load twice as far as a horse can on half the water a horse would need.
Mind you, a horse won't spit green goobers at you.

[ddragon63]

T.C. I think your thread has been hijacked... went from a 220v wiring question to a conversation about work animals

[cywelchjr]

Brian, As an engineer I can say that there are some of us that resemble that remark. And I can also say with the utmost of confidence from personal experience that often time the engineer designed the horse, even put out the drawings and the specs to get the horse, but the contractor made their own "interpretation" and built the camel. That sword is defintely double edged!

Ahh, engineers. I have very special feelings for engineers, specifically those who have no real world experience. When I worked in r&d in the army we often ran into situations where engineers would put a component that was known would fail often UNDER other components that pretty much NEVER failed and that had to be removed to change the failed component and couldn't understand why we wanted it changed, cause it was more "elegant" the way they had it, who care that it was impossible to service that way.

You could tell the stuff designed by those with real world experience, it was designed to be easy to repair.