Home Electrician info needed!?

[TopCatGr58]

Hey folks,

Okay, I thought that there were a few real electricians on here, so here's a question. I got that little 3-1 welding machine that's capable of running on 110V as well as 220v. It says that it can pull up to 50 amps at 220v for the plasma cutter as well as the TIG function.

My compressor runs on 110v, but puts a load on the garage circuit, and I can't run the welder AND the compressor at the same time both being on 110 on the same circuit. And for the Plasma cutter it requires 70psi 4 cfm air flow rate, and my~25 Gallon tank can only provide maybe a minute's worth before it will drop below the 80psi auto-on level to refill back up to 120 psi level.

SO...I'm looking to drop a 220v Line and socket in the garage. The fuse panel is on the same wall where I want to put the line. ALSO I just remembered that we had an electric stove/oven when the house was first built, and we switched it to GAS several years later, so there should be an unused 220v tap already running from the fuse panel and under the house.

I'm just asking for a rough estimate of what you would charge to put in the line, whether being able to cut and then pull the old stove line and reroute it along/inside the garage wall to the socket vs. just running a new line, plus the cost of the socket AND Plug.

The Plug that came with the unit is a NEMA-6 from what I was able to research, L6-30P are stamped on it, along with 30A and 250v rating?? The unit is supposed to possibly draw up to 50 amps at full capacity, so I'm thinking that I may need a different style plug that is rated a bit higher in Amps? I was told that the power transformer is autosensing both voltage and frequency, but that the plug uses 2 hots and a ground but no NEUTRAL!?Both in the 220v as well as 110v mode! The socket would only need to be maybe 10 feet away from the fusepanel, on the same wall.

Can anyone give/tell me a quote as well as any other info they seem fit for me to know, like if the 30A plug would be sufficient vs. some other type?

Thanks in advance.

[ViperRon]

Wish I was closer but I can give some information. The circuit in the box for the old stove is probably a 40 amp breaker and the wire may be a number 10 wire that went to the stove. If your welder callls for a 50 amp circuit I suggest that you have a number 8 wire and use a 50 amp breaker in the box, I always use copper from breaker boxes to circuits.

The work is not that hard I could walk you threw it but you have do be carefull and you would need someone there when you do it for safety. You can get supplies from Lowes or Home Depot. If you can not find someone to come and do it write me a PM and I'll get information and try to walk you threw it. Electricians vary on what they charge and not all know what they are supposed to.

[motoman]

Not much help T.C. but can tell you from runnin a service in my garage for my 220V welder(my wirefeed is just a 110v Lincoln 135) that a seperate 50A service is required. Your old stove service in the breaker box should already be that load servive(50A) and would work fine as a seperate service. That has to be a seperate service of sort, as that's what's required by code. Other than that, an electrician I am not. That AC service and wiring hook-up get very confusing to me being a 12V DC person. I know of at least three on here, that that is there forte(110/220V).

[crazy steve]

...probably a 40 amp breaker and the wire may be a number 10 wire that went to the stove. If your welder callls for a 50 amp circuit I suggest that you have a number 8 wire and use a 50 amp breaker in the box, I always use copper from breaker boxes to circuits..

Number 10 copper wire is only rated for 30 amps; most home range outlets are wired with #6 aluminum, rated for 40 amps. Number 8 copper is still too small for a 50, you would need 6 copper.

Thirty+ years in the business, I've already sent TC a PM on this....

[TopCatGr58]

Thanks Viper and Motoman,

I've been PM'd by Crazy Steve as well, have received good info so far. I've learned that the Stove line is probably Aluminum, but for a socket that will be plugged/unplugged often, best to run COPPER, Aluminum doesn't tolerate even a little vibration.

The breaker may well be a 40 AMP, don't know, didn't realize/think about that, just know that there are 3 double wide breakers in the box, it's a SQUARE-D brand box...house built in '96 so fairly new stock! Yep, the garage is attached....fusepanel is for the house wiring as well as garage, and socket/outlet would just be a few feet to the side closer to the center of the same wall.

IT's just that SWMBO doesn't want me handling or doing that level of electrical work with the possibility of getting myself fried or burning down the house! I can replace in house sockets, put up a ceiling fan or light fixture, but this level is a bit beyond my comfort zone.

I'm hoping to get out with just a couple of hundred bucks in service fees!

BTW, will it need to be inspected by some city official??

T.C.

[DGXSER]

IT's just that SWMBO doesn't want me handling or doing that level of electrical work with the possibility of getting myself fried or burning down the house! I can replace in house sockets, put up a ceiling fan or light fixture, but this level is a bit beyond my comfort zone.

Hey TC, just don't wear a watch so you know when you've been bit. Yes, someone had to go there.

BTW, will it need to be inspected by some city official??

Well, define "Need to be". Of course it will work just fine without a permit and therefor the inspection, and you can probably find a decent electrician that will do it without one. However, it is highly unlikely that your local code official would agree that you do not need one. To be sure your all nice and legal you do want to have the electrician you hire pull a permit and have it inspected. It will cost you a few more dollars than the guy who would do it without one.

I would agree that you want to use copper for the run out to the device. Even in commercial buildings where we allow aluminum for alot of the wiring, we always insist on copper to the branch circuits. The trick about aluminum is that it actually tends to react to the vibrations more than the copper and can loosen the connections. A key piece that can be overlooked is that even the breakers as well as the end devices have to have connection points rated for use with aluminum conductors. If you use aluminum, you also want to go back and check the fittings after a few months for tightness.

Per NFPA 70, National Electric Code, you would require #6 conductors for a 50 amp circuit if you use copper conductors, Aluminum typically requires at least one size larger conductors.

This is really not tough work to do, you could easily abandon the circuit to the stove and replace that 2 pole breaker with a 50 amp 2 pole breaker. Run new conductors in concuit if it is exposed in your garage.

Just my thoughts...HTH

[ddragon63]

Get some 8-3 cable from the home depot. shut off your power and wire a box on the wall.... use the old stove breaker or install a new one. green is ground, black and white are live. don't be scared its not that hard

you can run the 8-3 thu some conduit on the outside of the wall if you want. look on the label of your machine it should tell you max amp draw @ 220v. its draw and its power output are 2 different things. My 180 amp welder only draws 40 amps wide open.

[crazy steve]

...BTW, will it need to be inspected by some city official??

That can be a tough call, and will depend on your personal level of paranoia and your local regs. I'm sure if you call your local building department they'll say yes, but that will add another layer of cost on top, as you'll have to permit it to get an inspection. This can also complicate it though; I don't know how your local regulations work, but here the only persons who can get the permit are resident homeowners (who is then required to do the work themselves, although you can have 'help') or a licensed electrical contractor (which prevents a 'plain' electrician from doing it as a side job; he'll get a nasty fine if caught). If you have complete faith that whoever does the job has done it right, you can forgo an inspection with one more caveat: most property insurance policies can exclude coverage if a loss is due to 'unapproved' changes or additions. As a practical matter, unless your house burns down and it's obvious that the recent work was the problem, it likely won't matter. But some urban jurisdictions monitor this stuff pretty closely, so in some places it can matter. Most contractors wouldn't pull a permit for a job this small, but if they're licensed you're usually still covered. Of course, the other side of this is if you do get a licensed contractor and have it inspected, and the install was bungled and the inspector didn't catch it, they're both off the hook unless you can prove they failed in their jobs...

Scary ain't it....

[fredintoon]

Hi TC,
you can look up house wiring diagrams on the net but this don't help too much if the house PO disregarded the wiring color code and you gotta fix something.
Now your old electric stove was most likely hooked up to 220V/110V supply with a 4 conductor wire and a 4-pin plug while a welder only needs a 220V supply with 3 conductor wire and a 3-pin plug. Be careful what you do here.
I think I'm saying, pay the electrician. Not having your house burn down; priceless.

[b.walker5]

I agree with Fred, TC. What you're doing isnt terribly difficult, or complicated, in fact it's quite easy for those of us trained to know, but if you're not comfortable working with electricity, or don't completely understand how it works, the potential to 'get it wrong' can be high.

Over here, what you're doing is defined as 'Prescribed Electrical Work' and can only be connected to the supply by a Registered Electrician with a current Practising Licence, and has to be tested and certified on/with a Certificate of Compliance. As an Registered Electrician I can 'self certify' my own work but only Registered Electricians can fill out CoC's, not homeowners. Homeowners are limited to changing fittings and fixtures, i.e plug sockets, light fittings etc, and running new cables for extensions, alterations etc, but they cannot connect to the supply, and the work has to be tested by a sparky before it can be. We dont need permits for work at that level, only if we are running new 'mains' or replacing the main switchboard, or main earth, in which case the work has to be inspected and signed off by a Registered Inspector before the lines company will connect to the supply.

Thats probably not much help to you, but what, in a long winded way, i'm trying to say is get an Electrician to either guide you, and connect it, or get an electrician to do the whole job. Your safety, and the safety of your family depends on 'getting it right'.

And, our insurance companies walk away from any uncertified work.

Without seeing your layout it sounds like 2 to 3 hours work for any competent electrician, less if you've run the cables, so shouldnt cost you much, but do it in copper not alloy. Were not allowed to use alloy in domestic situations, and there's serious restrictions on it in a commercial application. Mostly its for industrial use when the cables get over 85mm2 in size. Much lighter to handle at those sizes. Try throwing a 240mm2, copper cable round a building, on cable trays 4 metres in the air. Then you know you're alive.

[joceiphus]

I'm hoping to get out with just a couple of hundred bucks in service fees!

For that price, pick up your phone book, and call any electrical contractor in there.

[TopCatGr58]

The Plot Thickens

Thanks again to everyone for their info and advice which will be well heeded!

Due to my ignorance, I apparently miscalculated the required AMPs for the desired 220v line! I was confusing the plasma cutter output values....up to 50 amps, with it's required input, that when the unit is run on mere 110v the plasma cutter is limited by the max 15-20 amps range of 110, and my simple math got me thinking I would need 50 amps for the desired 50 amp cutter, not taking into consideration the differences in 220v vs. 110v! The fine owner's manual is in broken english, here are the stats/specs, a couple of values I wasn't familiar with are KVA and PF! I've done some research and have since learned what they are, and the formula for converting the KVA to AMPS draw!

Input Voltage: 110/220 +/- 15%
Input Frequency (hz): 50/60
Consumption (KVA): 6.3
No-Load Loss (W): 45
Duty Cycle (%) 60
Power Factor: 0.93
Efficiency (%) 85
Insulation Class: B
Protection Class: IP23

Other Stats Arc/Tig/Cut-plasma
Input Current (A) 22 / 20 / 27.3
Output Current (A) 160 / 200 / 50

The formula:

KVA = Amps x Volts/(1000xPF)
reversing factoring
KVA x 930 / volts = amps

6.3 x 930 = 5859 / 110v = 53.6 amps

6.3 x 930 = 5859 / 220v = 26.6 amps

And it says in the next to last line above Input Current (Amps) 27.3

SO..now I know/realize why they had a 30amp/250v NEMA-6 plug on it and not a 50 amp plug!!

So...my current 40amp double wide breaker should be just fine for this added circuit.

T.C.

[ddragon63]

I just sold a walk in customer a 220v plug before I left the store today... he got all pissy with me because the plug said 220v 30a. "My Miller-matic 210 will blow that thing up!" Told him that draw and output are 2 different things... he told me he use to work construction, blah blah blah

So I took him out back, plugged in the Lincoln 350mp (I just got done putting a new display in it) plugged it into the wall with a 220v 30a plug and welded 1/4 Aluminum with a Python Push-Pull gun running 3/64 5356 aluminum wire. ANY MORE QUESTIONS?! He gave me his 25 bucks and left

[b.walker5]

Sound like you'll be fine with the 40a but bear in mind that the inrush current when you 'strike an arc' will be considerably higher than the rated 27 amps, but its time span is in milliseconds, so unless you have super sensitive circuit breakers you'll be fine. That said, when I'm installing circuits that I know will be used for welders I use motor rated circuit breakers. They'll take 7 times the rated current for short bursts to allow for motor start current, which is typically 7 times the rated run current.

Still advise you to use an Elecrician though. Some things should definately be left to the professionals, and the 'silent killer' that is Electricity is one of them.

[latexeses]

Err to the high side. The peace of mind is worth the extra bucks to buy the cable.
I had a 50 foot run to run my lathe. 30amp motor. Went with #6 from the main to the sub panel and the same #6 to the machine. 70 amp breaker at the mail panel 50 at the sub.

I know it doesn't get mentioned much, but make sure the load is balanced in your main panel. It is easy to get over loads on one side or the other and it can cause issues.