Failing Sound Check

[John]

The bike looks pretty good stock, but you're right, the new pipe does look very good on there. A few years ago Kat and I were riding in the Pathfinder Memorial ride, back when Planedick bought the bike from Delzell's widow, and there were a couple of h-d's ahead of us, and they had some very loud, obnoxiuos pipes on them. We happened to be right behind them. The noise and stench was unbearable, and we had to get ahead of them to avoid getting a headache from the fumes and noise. Granted, they looked good, but I just don't get the noise. It is not impressive. And why do they always seem to be compelled to rev them up every time they go under a bridge?

[crazy steve]

One discussion I had with the NH troopers was about my 1980 XS1100SG. I asked, "How the heck am I suppose to put pipes on an old bike like that if from what you are telling me, any aftermarket pipe is illegal? Am I suppose to put the rusted and dented original pipes back on just to be legal?"

Unfortunately, he didn't have much of an answer for that other than to say once again, if they aren't loud and you aren't out there reving the crap out of them, the cops aren't going to bother you.

This is going to be a big problem, probably soon. California is cracking down on aftermarket pipes and if they can make it stick, look for other places to try the same thing. The fact that the LEO didn't have a 'real' answer just shows how easy it's going to be to get ticketed for an exhaust violation; if you get pulled over for anything else, that will be a nice 'add-on' for more money. Get a dick-head cop and/or a greedy locality and it could get expensive.

Don's concern about having a 'legal' exhaust on our XS's is real. Do you use a loud rusted-out OEM exhaust, or put on a maybe quieter aftermarket set that still may not meets specs and will get you a ticket just because it's not OEM?

And for what it's worth, don't blame ALL Harley riders; I'm on a Sportster forum, and this is a real concern over there too. The 'loud pipes' morons are in the minority there too. Our 'XS cousins' the loud sport bikes are just making sure that we all get painted with the same brush. On this issue, all riders better stand together.

A big part of this problem is also the aftermarket. They have been marketing exhaust systems for years with virtually no concern for noise or EPA regs; it's been about either performance or style. If the EPA gets serious, your aftermarket choices are going to shrink big-time and exhausts for bikes like the XS are likely to disappear completely.

'78E original owner

[CatatonicBug]

And why do they always seem to be compelled to rev them up every time they go under a bridge?

That and right before the light turns green at any intersection! It's like they aren't sure whether the engine is still running, or they're afraid it's not going to respond when they hit the throttle...

[thewiz]

Well spoken, CrazySteve ..

A few months ago and for 6 years prior, I lived 50 feet off of Cal. Hwy 79 S. leading from Temecula east and south through the mountains to Julian and eventually to I-8. 79S is a major route for toy haulers going out to Salton Sea and for bikers out for a cruise. I've heard enough loud bikes to last me a lifetime, in fact, during summer there, I couldn't even keep the windows open because of the loud packs of 20 and 30 Harleys riding by, one pack after another.

Like Bug, I'm not so sure 'loud pipes save lives' either. The vast majority of mc accidents happen when the trouble comes from the front between 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions ... well within a normal field of vision anyway AND the pipes are blasting in the opposite direction. The only time I really notice loud pipes when I'm driving a cage is when the rider is comming from behind me and I'm travelling more slowly in heavier traffic. Usually the bikes are splitting lanes. Then I hear the pipes ... but I think 'lane splitting' is only legal in Cal .. and there, only under certain conditions ... so go figure.

Sport bikes can be offensive too but their saving grace is that, at least, there are WAY fewer of 'em ...they liked to ride that road one at a time between 3 and 4 am when it was relatively deserted .... I could hear them a mile or more away sometimes ... likely hitting speeds of 120 PLUS .... takes more balls than I have to ride like that and an "unhealthy lack of respect for the forces of nature" as Dan Hodges has stated at some point. Sadly, Darwin, sorts these guys out with regularity.

[crazy steve]

....and right before the light turns green at any intersection! It's like they aren't sure whether the engine is still running, or they're afraid it's not going to respond when they hit the throttle...

That I can speak to, as I'm as guilty as the next guy. This is a peculiarity of Harleys (and maybe the V-twin clones too) that if you're not running an aftermarket single-fire ignition, they'll tend to backfire through the carb (the dreaded 'carb farts') if the tune's not perfect and die on you. A few extra rpms will generally prevent this, but some guys believe in excess. This is most prevalent with guys that do exhaust mods (those damn loud pipes again!) and don't get the jetting spot-on, but big cams with a lot of overlap can cause it also (my case).

This doesn't seem to be a problem with the EFI bikes, only the carbed ones.

'78E original owner

[DJinNH]

Just thought I'd share the email I sent to Vance & Hines and the reply I got from one of their techs....basically saying I am S.O.L. That is, unless of course I want to shell out another $700 or more for one of their new exhaust systems.




Hi Don,

The pipes you have now, are not adjustable from the current sound. If anything, our future pipes may be tuned to emit a lower dB level.

--
Regards,

Scott Takata
Technical Support

Tel: 562.921.7461
Tel: 800.592.2529
Fax: 562.802.0110

stakata@vanceandhines.com
http://www.vanceandhines.com
13861 Rosecrans Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vance-Hines/54025481105



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(my letter)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 13:01:26 +0000 (UTC)
To: sales@vanceandhines.com, tech@vanceandhines.com
Subject: Vance and Hines exhaust are illegal ref noise level in New Hampshire

I am writing to your company to ask what can I do about my illegal Vance and Hines Exhaust pipes. Last night, the New Hampshire State Troopers and Portsmouth, NH Police set up a checkpoint in downtown Portsmouth. Luckily they were not writing tickets or warnings on this occasion, only doing it to inform us riders.

They had me run my 2009 Yamaha Raider (1854 cc's) up to 2800 rpms to check the noise level. In New Hampshire, the max decibel level is 106. With my new exhaust, I registered a 109.

The troopers who conducted the tests told me that personnel from Vance and Hines recently attended their inspection site that was held at this year's Bike Week in Laconia, NH. The troopers said that your company is genuinely trying to adhere to the new law.

So my question to you...can I expect to get some extra fiberglass padding or whatever I need for my baffle from Vance and Hines at their expense or is this something I will need to pay for myself after shelling out approximately $700 for my system?

[thewiz]

Pretty cold ...

response from them, Don. That would piss me off. What are you going to do? Put the originals back on for inspection? Dump the V and H?

[DJinNH]

response from them, Don. That would piss me off. What are you going to do? Put the originals back on for inspection? Dump the V and H?

The first letter I posted was a response from a V&H tech. Here's the second one I got later from this other gentleman who did much better in explaining.

Don,

Thank you for the information on the sound testing taking place in New Hampshire. To answer your question, however, we currently make only one type of baffle for your Big Radius 2-into-1 exhaust system, which is the one that came pre-installed in the muffler.

Recently, motorcycle noise has become a bigger issue with the general public. As a result, many states as well as cities have begun enacting their own laws enforcing limitations for noise levels. The difficulty that this presents is that there is no uniform standard for the aftermarket to manufacture to (other than the EPA 80dB standard). State and municipal laws are often based on very different test procedures and noise level standards. This being the case, we currently do not design our systems to meet any particular standard that is being applied either by a city or state.

Nonetheless, we are aware that this is a growing problem and are working on developing new exhaust designs that emit less noise and may be able to meet some of the more stringent standards that are in place around the country. Developing baffles to meet certain sound levels while also yielding a noticeable performance gain is a very technical process. For example, adding additional fiberglass packing alone may not provide a long term solution, as it can quickly deteriorate and pass through the muffler.

Therefore, I apologize that we do not presently have a solution to modify your exhaust system to make it compliant to the standard enforced in New Hampshire. Your feedback is important, however, because the more feedback we obtain, the more we can prioritize the development of optional baffle designs. Big Radius 2-into1 is a fairly popular design, and given that it has a large volume muffler may make it a good candidate for the development of an optional baffle in the near future. Please feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions.

Sincerely,

Tom Trobaugh
Vance & Hines
13861 Rosecrans Avenue
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
(562) 921-7461
(562) 802-7466 (fax)
www.vanceandhines.com


So what will I do now? Registering only 3 db over the limit and I question how accurate their RPM gauge was, I'm going to keep them on, drive like I always do which is nice a slow. I'll just have to hope that the several cops/troopers I have spoken too earlier about noise levels were telling me the truth when they said, "No one is going to bother you as long as you aren't revving up your engine and making a racket."

Don

[fossil]

sure signs of the apocalypse

To the subject: My '78 XS1100F has a stock exhaust system in excellent shape. My '80 XS1100 Special has a Jardine 4 into 2. Which is louder? The stock system! According to the laws quoted here, both bikes are illeagl and I must junk them and buy a new one, which I can't afford. Guess what people,I've been legislated out of motorcycling! As you can see by my handle, I'm of the mature persuation. I still remember when we lived our lives as we saw fit and let others do the same. Perhaps this is to "stimulate" the sales of new cycles, (in this economy?) or maybe to rid us of the scourge of bikers, (can motorcyclists be far behind?), or maybe to irradicate old things, so as not to offend people (God. patriatism, family, senior citizens?) Before you laugh too loudly, did you ever think we'd see the federal government in the car business? Look at the "clunker" deal they have going now, that could very well filter down to the motorcycle business and, because there are few of us, could be made manditory. I don't think we are heading for a "slippery slope", more like a sheer cliff!

[thewiz]

Eloquent post, Fossil ...

Maybe this is soon to happen ....

"clunker" deal they have going now, that could very well filter down to the motorcycle business

Finally ... a way to get my money out of these old 11's could be right around the corner, eh?. Another good reason to hang onto 'em

Don ...Good approach, I guess there is no sense in gettin' all bent outa' shape over it, it is what it is, right? ... just take it slow and easy where the LEOS might be.

[tw1980]

To the subject: My '78 XS1100F has a stock exhaust system in excellent shape. My '80 XS1100 Special has a Jardine 4 into 2. Which is louder? The stock system! According to the laws quoted here, both bikes are illeagl and I must junk them and buy a new one, which I can't afford. Guess what people,I've been legislated out of motorcycling! As you can see by my handle, I'm of the mature persuation. I still remember when we lived our lives as we saw fit and let others do the same. Perhaps this is to "stimulate" the sales of new cycles, (in this economy?) or maybe to rid us of the scourge of bikers, (can motorcyclists be far behind?), or maybe to irradicate old things, so as not to offend people (God. patriatism, family, senior citizens?) Before you laugh too loudly, did you ever think we'd see the federal government in the car business? Look at the "clunker" deal they have going now, that could very well filter down to the motorcycle business and, because there are few of us, could be made manditory. I don't think we are heading for a "slippery slope", more like a sheer cliff!

Right you are.Passing new laws simply because I don't like what someone else does,will always come back to haunt me.I have never owned a v twin but personally I like the sound they make.But I like the sound of two strokes as well.Maybe I'm a little weird.

[cueball]

Quityabitchin

Be thankful you still get a 106db limit, down here we get about 96bd and if the cop has pms they write tickets for "cause undue noise in manner operated" which is unbeatable in court. or write a "canary" (yellow defective vehicle notice) which costs money and time (visits to mechanic and motor registry) to get removed. Even if someone has a certificate from EPA approved noise tester they can still do the "undue noise in manner operated" (revenue raising) routine.

[xs11jack]

Ya, the aftermarket

looks better, the oem seem to be too big an element in the overall design. Kinda like the huge pipes on the new Maxim. On the subject of loud pipes, I got a neighbor five houses down from me that seems to be unemployed and owns a really loud Harley. This spring when I bought my current XS11, I was cleaning it up one afternoon and here comes Harley head. He stopped at the stop sign between my house and the next. He looked over and saw me working away on an old bike. He just had to impress me with the wonderfulness of the Harley Davison. He rev'ed it to about 4000, popped the clutch, and the bike jumped two feet and stalled. His head snapped forward and the top of his official Harley Windshied put a nasty gash in his forehead! After that for a couple of days he snuck by as quietly as he could, and turned his head so the bandage on his forehead wasn't quite so visible. Poor Baby!!!

[CatatonicBug]

looks better, the oem seem to be too big an element in the overall design. Kinda like the huge pipes on the new Maxim. On the subject of loud pipes, I got a neighbor five houses down from me that seems to be unemployed and owns a really loud Harley. This spring when I bought my current XS11, I was cleaning it up one afternoon and here comes Harley head. He stopped at the stop sign between my house and the next. He looked over and saw me working away on an old bike. He just had to impress me with the wonderfulness of the Harley Davison. He rev'ed it to about 4000, popped the clutch, and the bike jumped two feet and stalled. His head snapped forward and the top of his official Harley Windshied put a nasty gash in his forehead! After that for a couple of days he snuck by as quietly as he could, and turned his head so the bandage on his forehead wasn't quite so visible. Poor Baby!!!

Serves him right! If he'd been wearing a proper helmet, that wouldn't have happened anyway!

[DJinNH]

looks better, the oem seem to be too big an element in the overall design. Kinda like the huge pipes on the new Maxim. On the subject of loud pipes, I got a neighbor five houses down from me that seems to be unemployed and owns a really loud Harley. This spring when I bought my current XS11, I was cleaning it up one afternoon and here comes Harley head. He stopped at the stop sign between my house and the next. He looked over and saw me working away on an old bike. He just had to impress me with the wonderfulness of the Harley Davison. He rev'ed it to about 4000, popped the clutch, and the bike jumped two feet and stalled. His head snapped forward and the top of his official Harley Windshied put a nasty gash in his forehead! After that for a couple of days he snuck by as quietly as he could, and turned his head so the bandage on his forehead wasn't quite so visible. Poor Baby!!!

Sounds like yet another commercial for SouthWest Airlines...."Wanna Get Away?"

Don