Two things I hate...

[crazy steve]

so, if the lifestyle and marketing dont mean anything to you, why have a harley and not a knock off that looks nearly identical, handles the same and rides as well for a fraction of the price?........ snip......Ultimately, Harley Davidson marketing has so constricted the american cyclist's view point that any one wanting a new bike has the choice of a harley clone, a gold wing, a sport bike, or an off road dial sport type. Had Harley not marketed their poor excuse for an engine so well, I submit that we woild be several years advanced beyond where we are today with motorcycle design. Unfortunately, we cyclists as a whole are like thoughtless lemmings that buy what ever the marketing gods say is "cool"

That is why I dislike Harleys.

First, one reason for not buying a clone is HD's quality, fit, and finish is miles ahead of what the Japanese bikes offer, particularly on the plating. I know more than a few 'clone' owners who have blistering and rusting chrome on bikes only a few years old, and they gagged at the replacement part costs. And Harley resisted using plastic bits on their bikes for years; only in '04 did the Sportster get any plastic body parts. Two, cost? Yeah, the clones are cheaper initially, but after buying that's no longer the case. Parts are more expensive, and after seeing one guy have to pull part of his exhaust to change the oil filter, service doesn't look all that great either. Three, parts availability. My '93 Sportster is now 16 years old, and replacement parts are only a phone call away. I have another that's 23 years old that I'm just finishing up after rebuilding it from a basketcase, and I had zero problems finding parts for that one too. Sure, if you're trying to do a 100% perfect resto on a old harley you'll have trouble finding some parts, but keeping it running? No problem at all.

And yep, Harley's V-twin an old design. But they've got all the bugs out of the basic design and if you don't ask more than it can deliver, is pretty much bulletproof. And they're ridiculously easy to work on compared to the 'hi-tech' designs on the rare occasions when you need to. Want more power? The amount of speed equipment out there is mind-boggling. There's more 100+ HP Harleys out there than you think.

Now, blaming Harley for a lack of advance in the motorcycle market is just plain wrong. The imports have tried selling just about everything under the sun at one time or another; turbos, wankels, you name it. Where are those now? They didn't sell well owing to their cost, complexity and unreliability, the makers abandoned them as far as parts, and now they're dead and gone. Harley has paid very good attention to what sells, and that's what they market. Just because they've been very good at that doesn't mean it's their fault the public buys it; every time they've tried to dictate the market with a bike, it hasn't sold well. The Japanese have been building less expensive disposable bikes for years; you buy it, ride it so many miles, then throw it away as it's too expensive to fix it. One positive that came out of that is it forced Harley to improve their quality, and they more than answered. Sure, nearly everybody is doing disposable now (cars, appliances, tvs, etc) but Harley is one of the few that hasn't done that and I think that's a big part of their success. Want to personalized your bike? Then HD is the best choice by far, as the options are nearly unlimited.


All of these bikes have their good points and bad points; if you love what you have, it's cool; let's go riding! But declaring one is a POS with no first-hand knowledge is pretty ignorant. Oh, and by the way; the rear cylinder on my Sporty runs COOLER than the front cylinder. That's very common, and has to do with the firing order. The fancy single-fire aftermarket ignitions will let you advance the rear cylinder timing a bit for more power.

'78E original owner

[b.walker5]

Eh Bro, get another blue dog, let the cat and wife take their own chances. Obviously the usa boys don't understand eh. As for those milwaulkee things, mud pumps don't require much maintenance, still primitive, just like the mentality of the MAJORITY of those who own them. Must admit I actually talk to several, they where actually once smart enough to own Jap bikes. Then fell into the "all my friends have one" trap. Pitiful

The wife says I'm not allowed another dog, Zak bit her once and she he's not that keen to repeat it. But she's allowed her 3 horses, a goat, 9 sheep and a ram, and her bloody cat, despite the fact that the cat scratches and bites and her horses kick and bite. Something's fundamentally wrong with that, but that just gives me an excuse to spend more time with my hobbies, (Hotrod and bike). As to the Harley thing, (love the mud pump reference, I'm going to use that) I've ridden enough of them to know I don't want one, but i've often thought that if I ever won lotto, I'd buy a full dresser and mount it in a slab of concrete on my front lawn, something for the birds to perch, and sh*t on. (could be as early as next week, the midweek draw is up to 25 million)

[cueball]

mud pumps

Build a two storey house, bedroom upstairs. Put compressor / mud pump on lawn under balcony where you can empty bladder on it every morning from upstairs. definitely unfair of wife not letting you have blue dog. be sneaky, get red heeler, just a crazy, she did'nt say no red dog.

[b.walker5]

I'd have to disguise it as a small horse and teach it to eat grass, probably have to buy a saddle for it as well.

[cueball]

The dog or the wife only joking, maybe.

[b.walker5]

Dog, wifes already got one..

[Firefighter46]

Funny Video

That one's good, i believe there is another video on that car as well!

[cueball]

that is as far as i am going with that topic

[cueball]

well ok, what sort? standard for a casual ride, stock type for a bit of hard work, or maybe a wide beam style to fit a broad backed model, sort of like a draught horse

[b.walker5]

Western ! for real Yee Haa entertainment

[cueball]

I'll have to think about that one for a while. Thoughts about training to the shaft and pulling wagons for you and the new red/blue heeler to ride on come to mind.

[Ralphy]

I love cats, They taste like chicken!

[Ivan]

Now, blaming Harley for a lack of advance in the motorcycle market is just plain wrong.

Who do we blame it on then? The people that buy their hype? Harley has been making the 2 cylinder radial since the early 1900s. They have a death grip on that design. Why? Why not change to something that runs right? Because they put more into their marketing department and merchandising than into design and development.

All of these bikes have their good points and bad points; if you love what you have, it's cool; let's go riding! But declaring one is a POS with no first-hand knowledge is pretty ignorant. Oh, and by the way; the rear cylinder on my Sporty runs COOLER than the front cylinder. That's very common, and has to do with the firing order. The fancy single-fire aftermarket ignitions will let you advance the rear cylinder timing a bit for more power.

Just because I have not ridden one does not mean I have no first hand knowledge. I helped my Uncle wrench in his shop and he was a died in wool Harley arrogant bastard. Love him as I might, we argued to wits end about design philosophy. Really, who in their right mind would fire two cylinders at the same time that aren't at the same position in the cylinder? There is NO firing order on those engines. They fire at the same time. The single throw crank means they are not at the same relative degrees at any time, so why would you fire them at the same time? When Honda came out with their first Harley clone, they used a single throw crank, and Harley threw a fit. Sued them for copyright infringement over an engine configuration. Like if Ford sued Chevy for putting a V8 in their trucks. So, Honda changed to a dual throw crank, same block, cylinders and pistons and gained 20% horsepower. From just the crank changing. Maybe HD engines are so bullet proof since they run 20º retarded timing on one cylinder and 20% less horsepower than they could.

So there are gazillions of aftermarket speed options for HD. Big deal if a guy can bolt on some screaming eagle stuff and call it a custom. My XS has more hand machined parts on it that carry my own blood, sweat, tears and metal polish on it than I will ever see on a Harley. I have designed my own farkles and manufactured them as well, yet my bike is not a "custom" bike, it is just a "UJM". However some guy with a credit card and a vest with patches can put a set of pre fab highway pegs on his HD and it becomes a chopper and everyone pats him on the back for all his hard work. Go figure.

Saying I am ignorant just because I won't throw my leg over some over marketed scoot with a terrible engine design and great chrome plating just shows that you didn't let what I wrote the first time sink in. Those are reasons for my opinions. Ignorance would indicate that I have not thought it out and was just blindly saying what I say because I heard it somewhere else, and it sounded cool.

Sorry, I just have to quote this again:

The fancy single-fire aftermarket ignitions will let you advance the rear cylinder timing a bit for more power.

That in its self doesn't tell you that HD has a flawed design?

[crazy steve]

....Why not change to something that runs right?

Did you miss that part where I said 'they market what sells'? They must be doing something right, as they've been copied by nearly every other maker, and as they say, imatation is the sincerest form of flattery...

...I helped my Uncle wrench in his shop and he was a died in wool Harley arrogant bastard. Love him as I might, we argued to wits end about design philosophy. Really, who in their right mind would fire two cylinders at the same time that aren't at the same position in the cylinder?

You obviously weren't listening to him, just arguing. After your 'the rear cylinder runs hot' statement (which isn't true), now you come up with this, also not true. Sure, they fire both cylinders at the same time; just like the XS fires two at a time (not to mention other bikes and some cars). Is there only one spark per revolution? Of course not; each cylinder gets it's own timed spark, but both plugs are fired due to the single coil. The single-fire ignitions (each one fired by itself, separate coils) are popular for the guys with BIG cams with lots of overlap as it cleans up the idle and slightly improves low-end power by reducing intake reversion.

...Big deal if a guy can bolt on some screaming eagle stuff and call it a custom. My XS has more hand machined parts on it that carry my own blood, sweat, tears and metal polish on it than I will ever see on a Harley....

There you go again; making a sweeping statement with no basis in fact. Not everybody is a 'checkbook' biker. Sure, there's lots of those guys out there (and Harley doesn't have a patent on 'em), but not every Harley owner is like that. I'm finishing a Sportster right now that the only visible completely stock parts left on it are the cases, handgrips, headlight trim rings, and the gas cap; and the number of 'custom' aftermarket parts I bought I can count on my fingers. So you ain't got nuthin' on me.

Saying I am ignorant just because I won't throw my leg over some over marketed scoot with a terrible engine design and great chrome plating just shows that you didn't let what I wrote the first time sink in. Those are reasons for my opinions. Ignorance would indicate that I have not thought it out and was just blindly saying what I say because I heard it somewhere else, and it sounded cool.

I didn't say you were ignorant because you won't ride a Harley. Hey, everybody gets to ride what they want and/or can afford, and that's good. No, ignorance is slamming somebody else's ride when you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

So what are you going to invent to refute me this time?

'78E original owner

[b.walker5]

I'll have to think about that one for a while. Thoughts about training to the shaft and pulling wagons for you and the new red/blue heeler to ride on come to mind.

You're onto it, was talking about the wife, heelers have got way too many brains to wear one. She thinks eveything needs a saddle...



Me.. I just like being in one

Looks like we may have to rename this thread.... Harley Wars, perhaps