This is a discussion forum?

[trbig]

If you actually research things, you'll see that mandatory helmet laws DON'T really make sense. There is all kinds of arguments on both sides, but the truth is that there's really no difference in death statistics between states with and states without the laws. What they did find was states with helmet laws, they died from neck injuries with the added weight and fulcrum edge of the helmet. States without the laws show a higher death rate from head injury. To me.. dead is dead. It is also noted that motorcyclists usually suffer multiple injuries. Even though there may be two fatal torso injuries along with the head/neck trauma, the states are only required to list the head injuries. It's also noted that some states had a much LOWER death/accident rate after helmet laws were repealed.. leading some people to believe that the lowered visibility, mobility, and hearing caused by helmet usage may have played a big part in the actual motorcycle wrecks. More awareness means more avoided accidents.

Along these lines of thinking... as an EMT for many years, I can't tell you the amount of head traumas I have seen from automobile crashes. How many times have we read in the paper about someone involved in a wreck admitted to the hospital with head/neck injuries? Why isn't there a push to have car and truck drivers wear helmets also? Why is it limited to motorcyclists? Why does it make sense to limit a persons hearing and sight on a bike, but not in a car?

With as many legitimate arguments for and against this issue.. having a mandatory helmet law just DOESN'T make sense to me.

Tod

[madmax-im]

I would be for mandatory MSF for all new riders...but thats where I draw the line...I am not advocating a nanny state.There is no way the Gov't can protect us...they're failing miserably now...case in point US Border Patrol...FDA...USDA...and on and on.The point is to make intelligent decisions based on what you have learned from either your own experiences or those of others.That is still personal choice.Bottom line no one is gonna protect you better than yourself.But when your being scraped off the road by the emergency crew its too late to think that you should have worn that gear.Kinda like the state of Delaware.Their stupid law says you dont need to wear a helmet but you are required to have one on your bike...yeah right..like you're gonna know and have time to put it on in advance of an accident.

[Dsxs11]

Let's be honest here if you really think all the gear is going to save your life your living in a dream world. When I layed the Ducati down at 140 it was not the slide that hurt and my head never hit the ground. What broke my ankle 4 ribs and my ankle was the bike that hit me.
A long time ago I use to be in the towing business I've seen many fatal motorcycle accidents and 90% of the time the victim is wearing all the gear. When your screwing with your CD player on your Wing and you run head on into a semi I don't care if your wearing all the gear and a condom your screwed.
Back in the towing days it seemed the majority of bike accidents involved 3 types of bikes. Touring seems Wing riders have better things to do then be aware of what's going on around them like cup holders and cell phones. Sport touring riders. Seems those guys can't decide if they are cruising or racing a bagger. and of course the sport bike crowd that one's pretty obvious speed and stupidity kills no matter how much gear your wearing.
And if you really think the government should control what we do then I really feel bad for you. Mandatory helmet laws really do suck. I should have the freedom of choice I would choose to use one 90% of the time but Michigan has a ton of little traveled scenic roads I would love to pop the helmet off for.
Back in the 80's congress tried to make seat belts mandatory on motorcycles. I wonder how many people that safety device would have killed. If your counting on the gear to save your ass from something stupid your really living with a false sense of security. When that Tahoe next you changes lanes and your playing with your GPS I don't care if your wearing a 700.00 Shoei or no helmet your more then likely dead.

[madmax-im]

Well it was said earlier there certainly are no guarantees that ATG will save your life.Its clear it wont in some situations...but for the majority of accidents it will prevent serious injury and pain and suffering.It comes down to the dynamics of each incident.In the article that I posted that young lady could have very easily lost her life...she could have snapped her neck on the pavement,but she lived.She wanted to die because of the pain at least initially but she survived.There is no one cure for all scenarios never will be.

[Wildkat]

I've been thinking about investing in some gear... but just haven't done it yet... The thought of losing a few layers of skin has never really appealed to me and the one time I did slide... I was lucky enough to be wearing enough at the time to keep that from happening...
But I like the fact that I have the right to figure it out myself...

When John went down... it wouldn't have really mattered if he was wearing all the gear... He landed right on his butt... no slide... no road rash... nothing but impact... broke his back...

A friend of ours was riding a Goldwing... stopped at a light... a woman in a cage rearended him... broke his leg... killed her (ejected her from the car IIRC)

Another friend wasn't wearing a helmet... hit a Jeep that turned in front of him and sent him sailing over the Jeep... landed head first on the pavement... He did have a nasty wound on his head for awhile... but no major damage (but then... considering our friend... that really wasn't surprising )

People are going to ride how they want... dressed the way they want...
Sometimes stuff happens... sometimes it doesn't...
Even if you think you're fully prepared... it can still sneak up on you...

[DGXSER]

It all boils down to

what your comfortable doing. I agree 100% that I do not want the goverment dictating what I or anyone else can or can't do anymore than they already do. Every law they pass requires more of my taxes to cover soemone to monitor, administer and adjudicate it. They already get way to much of what I earn to create committees to monitor the things like the bailout of someone else who could not manage their firm or their money.

As to who wears what gear, I see both sides of it and like I said, we all should get to choose. If you really want to mandate safety, lets all go back to bicycles and eliminate this speed issue that kills instead of injuring, ohh,,, but wait, then we are back to helmets again aren't we.

[CatatonicBug]

The gear is not a magic solution. It's simply an insurance policy. Can't fix stupid, so no amount of gear is going to save you from it either. The idea is that if something unforeseen happens, and you have all the necessary training, are in good physical health and are paying attention to your surroundings, there is a better chance of experiencing LESS physical damage if you are wearing ATG than if you were not. All the gear in the world is not going to protect you when the semi runs over your head, but I would like to think that if I am forced to slide across the gravel on the shoulder, I will loose a lot less skin if I took the time to put on some gear before I got on the bike.

Organizations like OSHA, USDA, FDA, etc. are extremely good at what they do. They put regulations in place that act as filters to protect us from each other and from ourselves. No organization can do everything though. They can only catch a percentage of the dangerous things. Unfortunately, we have decided to rely so much on these systems of government that when they miss one potentially dangerous thing, we claim that they are not doing their jobs.

I compare these government organizations to SPAM filters on e-mail systems. Here in our office, we go through hundreds of thousands of e-mails every day. An average of 70% of those messages are SPAM. We have 3 layers of SPAM filters in our e-mail system, but some of it still gets through. I get complaints all the time that "the SPAM filters don't work!" because users are seeing 5-10 SPAM messages in their inbox. I try to tell them that they can only imagine what it would be like if the filters weren't working. They are working quite well, but they are not perfect. Just like the government - they work quite well, but they are not perfect.

[xs650mike]

Let's be honest here if you really think all the gear is going to save your life your living in a dream world.

You're living in a dream world. My noggin was saved in the first spill I had wearing a helmet. That solid "Whack!" told me that. That said I've spilled at various speeds since and never again hit my head. I did lose a lot of skin and spent a lot of time in pain and recovery. I nearly always wear all my gear all the time.

[madmax-im]

Gentlemen....what I have discerned boils down to this...There are two types of riders those that have been down and those that are going down.Those that have yet to go down argue and try to rationalize their choices by saying things like Oh I choose to wear what I want when I want,and even delude themselves into thinking it doesnt matter what I wear....So what? Those that have been down know its about mitigating their risks as best they can by wearing ATGATT.They have learned through their experiences.I have known people who were on one side of the fence until that accident changed their life and their opinions on what to wear.YMMV So What?

[Dsxs11]

You're living in a dream world. My noggin was saved in the first spill I had wearing a helmet. That solid "Whack!" told me that. That said I've spilled at various speeds since and never again hit my head. I did lose a lot of skin and spent a lot of time in pain and recovery. I nearly always wear all my gear all the time.

I'm happy for you but in 16 years I've put down 3 bikes 2 wearing shorts 1 in full gear the most damage I took was with full gear on. And I put the other 2 down after that incident. I mean really if your falling off your bike that much it's either time to get a side car or hang it up.

[Larrym]

Didn't want to put these pics in public domain. Fairly Graphic and so be warned.

http://s407.photobucket.com/albums/p...pedal/xsf1100/

Whichever side of the atgatt issue anyone chooses to be on just remember that at one point in time they looked at the situation and made that choice knowingly and willfully. What happens after that well....

[tarzan]

That has been posted before and if IIRC he was traveling over 120 mph at night.It wouldn't matter if he were fully geared up or naked he would be dead.And he was geared up.Just stupid.

[Bigfoot]

Do the helmet laws really make that much difference anyway. 99% of the Harley riders I see are wearing the little skull caps that are nothing but a very small fiberglass shell. They would really make no difference at all in a crash. Most of them are not legal since they are not DOT approved. I have seen them at motorcycle shops and they are listed "for novelty use". I have never heard of someone being ticketed for them though.

[egsols]

Hmmmm, lets see, to wear or not to wear? Freedom of choice or government mandates?

With all the safety regs out there telling us what we have to do or wear to be safe I think common sense seems to becoming extinct. Like so many have said, attgatt will not guarantee immortality. If I'm riding in town at 30 miles an hour and take a spill, banging my head off the pavement or curb, a helmet will probably save me. If I'm riding down the super slab doing a buck 20 and spill, whether I'm wearing a lid or not will probably not matter as I'm being flattened by traffic. Every time we go for a ride, we know, in the back of our mind, that it could be our last. Education, skill and awareness of our surroundings, I believe, are paramount for safety... gear is the insurance policy.

Speaking of common sense, hey Trbig, many years ago I put my full face on to drive my cage. I was told that I shouldn't drive while wearing a helmet. I asked "why not?" The reply was that it could impair my vision.

[CatatonicBug]

Do the helmet laws really make that much difference anyway. 99% of the Harley riders I see are wearing the little skull caps that are nothing but a very small fiberglass shell. They would really make no difference at all in a crash. Most of them are not legal since they are not DOT approved. I have seen them at motorcycle shops and they are listed "for novelty use". I have never heard of someone being ticketed for them though.

Most of those skull caps ARE DOT approved. There are some that are not, but all the ones I see here in MO and most I see online are listed as DOT approved. I do agree that they sure don't seem like they'd do much in a crash though. Not to mention the lack of protection from road debris.