Worst case sceneario

[mro]

you will do whatever physics demands and your body is physiologically able to do

Generally have the time to think
"OH $HIT" or something simular

On the street I've never "laid it down", but it will go down sometimes no matter what you think or do.


mro

[strippedFJ]

YOU DO NOT ROLL Period. The people advising you of that are either dirt bike riders (completely different situation to road accidents) or ill-informed.

Rolling dramatically increases the amount of damage, including head, kneck and back injuries. If possible once the bike is 'gone' attempt to throw yourself and prepare to slide where you can, preferable feet first. DO NOT ROLL.

I am an ex-nurse and have seen far worse damage from rolling than sliding.

As for practice, there is, or at least used to be, a rider training course in Australia called 'Stay Upright' where they actually practice putting a bike down, on a race track not grass/dirt. And they are adamant about sliding, not rolling, for the simple reason that far more people die rolling than sliding.

A mate is sitting here right now and between us we have over 80 years experience, and numerous accidents. We have both attended rider training courses across 3 countries and neither of us have ever heard anyone advise rolling, always against it. Rob is spitting chips, as far as he is concerned the people who are advising you to roll are completely WRONG and TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE.

[strippedFJ]

I just can't stop on this one.

But some should definitely stop and think! ie if you are sliding far and fast enough to shave your butt off, then rolling for the same distance at the same speed WILL result in

1. head injuries (the idea that you can protect your head with your hands is airy fairy land thinking)

2. kneck/spine injuries

3. internal injuries

All 3 are fatal, or near fatal conditions, shaving your butt is not often fatal, just an extreme lesson in wearing gear.

4. serious arm injuries, if not amputation (guess what? that's fatal too)

5. serious leg injuries

Also, if you are rolling you will not slow down as fast, and therefore have a greater chance of rolling into a dangerous situation.

DO NOT ROLL EVER, if you can help it.

[Wildkat]

See?

This is where a more clear scenario would have helped...

Wow strippedFJ... totally irresponsible? I don't think so...
Not every situation is it going to work... maybe it isn't a good idea in some... but I've seen it work in other situations... and the times that I've seen somebody roll... I think, at the time, it was the best choice... They came out alive and able to ride away... It worked for them...

You aren't always going to be guaranteed to land on your butt or in a position to slide... Ideally, that's great... but it isn't going to happen...

When I went down I was lucky enough to be going through an intersection at the short moment where all lights were red... bike went in front of me and I slid along after it... a bit of road rash on my butt and a very bruised ego... but I wouldn't have tried rolling then...

[strippedFJ]

Re: See?

Originally posted by Wildkat
This is where a more clear scenario would have helped...

Wow strippedFJ... totally irresponsible? I don't think so...
Not every situation is it going to work... maybe it isn't a good idea in some... but I've seen it work in other situations... and the times that I've seen somebody roll... I think, at the time, it was the best choice... They came out alive and able to ride away... It worked for them...

You aren't always going to be guaranteed to land on your butt or in a position to slide... Ideally, that's great... but it isn't going to happen...

When I went down I was lucky enough to be going through an intersection at the short moment where all lights were red... bike went in front of me and I slid along after it... a bit of road rash on my butt and a very bruised ego... but I wouldn't have tried rolling then...

Makes no difference WildKat, advising people to try to roll as a general rule is wrong.

I have had accidents where I've gone over bonnets, been thrown over cars and guard rails, head first, and in that situation have rolled to prevent face planting, but the intention has always been, and should always be to get into a slide if you are moving fast enough.

The human body is not designed to handle high speed rolls, regardless of what hollywood, or Kung Fu movies would have you believe.

We can argue all night long on this point, and get nowhere. It would be better if someone (ie TC or such like) contact reputable rider training schools in the US and see what their opinion is. For all anyone knows I, or you, could be little better than a newbie. And this information will get riders killed, best to sort the issue out by referencing known professionals in the area.

PS the previous advice of putting your hands around your head, and tucking up your legs is not the correct way to roll, the correct way is Judo style. Will provide superior impact reduction when executed properly, and will allow the rider to more easily slow/stop the roll.

[Wildkat]

Okay...

so first you say it's WRONG and TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE... and then you go on to say you've done it and THEN go on to tell how to do it properly?

Okaaaaaaaay...

No matter what we say here... people are going to do whatever comes to mind at the time anyway... but a number of options are presented... hopefully something will help...

[strippedFJ]

Re: Okay...

Originally posted by Wildkat
so first you say it's WRONG and TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE... and then you go on to say you've done it and THEN go on to tell how to do it properly?

Okaaaaaaaay...

No matter what we say here... people are going to do whatever comes to mind at the time anyway... but a number of options are presented... hopefully something will help...

Go back and read it again, that's not what I was saying at all.


What I said was that I have rolled, due to the circuimstances, and THEN MOVED TO A SLIDE POSITION.

For christ sake, it's bad enough that you are giving out STUPID AND IRRESPONSIBLE information. you could at least take the effort to read my post properly.

If you can't even read a simple post properly where do you get off advising novices on something you abviously have little knowledge about.

I repeat what I said previously let's get someone who can be relied on to verify the information with the experts. Or is that too much to ask?

[Wildkat]

Having a bad day?

I DID read your post...


and the point is... it ALL depends on the circumstances... not every scenario will give way to being able to slide....
Yes... that is the preferred method... if you are ABLE to do it... Sometimes you are going to roll...

Maybe a little better attitude and not inferring that people are stupid will improve your chances of not getting attitude in return...

[strippedFJ]

Re: Having a bad day?

Originally posted by Wildkat
I DID read your post...


and the point is... it ALL depends on the circumstances... not every scenario will give way to being able to slide....
Yes... that is the preferred method... if you are ABLE to do it... Sometimes you are going to roll...

Maybe a little better attitude and not inferring that people are stupid will improve your chances of not getting attitude in return...

I'm having a great day, completed a data migration utility, and testing is going great.

Refuting the incorrect advice that was being given was more important than you. Or do you think that your sensitivities are more important than the lives of your fellow riders. Absolutely wonderful attitude you have love.

[trbig]

Well.. In the fairy land that I happen to obviously live in, if flipping backwards, hands around the back of the head DOES cushion tremendously and help prevent the whiplash effect of the back of the head hitting.

It's obvious you have an opinion on this. My opinion comes from experience and what has worked for me. You're opinion is just that, and some (Me) would appreciate it not being shoved down our throats.

I would dare say that I have had HUNDREDS of wrecks.. on dirt bikes. Not quite sure where your reasoning is coming from, but I don't see a lof of difference at dismounting at 80mph on a dirt or street bike, besides more of the cheese grater factor on asphalt. Where are all my head/neck/back injuries, arm/leg amputatuions, and internal injuries?

I agree that a sideways roll is prefered over an end over end, but the whole point of a ROLL is to prevent these sudden stoppages and hard imapcts. Although it probably doesn't look as cool as it does in the movies, it has worked for me all my life.

Tod
And Stripped.. Please tone it down quite a bit. You are welcome to state your opinions, but the name calling and attacks won't be accepted.

[barberad]

To brace for impact or relax...decisions decisions.
I think the MSF rider course and the advanced rider course are good sources of riding skills and info.
And always wear clean underwear!!!

[Wildkat]

Re: Re: Having a bad day?

Originally posted by strippedFJ
Absolutely wonderful attitude you have love.

I was thinking the same thing about you...

Nope... my "sensitivities" have nothing to do with this... I gave an option... may not be the best in some situations... might be good in others... There was no scenario given but you yourself said that you went into a roll at one time... so apparently sometimes, it is necessary...

My inital response to this post was only a couple of ways of avoiding problems... it was in no way meant to say that they were the ONLY ways to avoid injury...

As enjoyable as this exchange with you has been... I have other things to do...

Please continue to have a great day...

[egsols]

Rider courses

Education is never a bad thing. Just don't take everything someone says as gospel.

The more knowledge you have allows you more choices and when on a bike ignorance is not bliss.

I don't believe there is any single way of preventing injury when rider and bike part ways. The rider must rely on instinct to minimize injury, be it clasping hands around their pumpkin or mimicing a luge run.

As far as the debate goes regarding sliding/rolling I thought the premise of this forum was to allow for the open exchange of opinions and not the judging thereof. I think that the majority of the members, on this site, posess enough intelligence to make up their own minds and as such, do not take every posted thought literally.

If I need to be told what to believe, then I simply turn on CNN or listen to my local politician, they all know what is "right" for us.

[Ivan]

wow, I wasn't wanting this to become a battleground.

From what I have seen of the racers, the dirt guys tend to roll and the sport guys tend to slide. Admittedly they have armor to help, and I am guessing this lends little to situations involving cages etc.

Since I don't have a full set of stormtrooper compo armor, I pretty much ride like a pu$$y. always looking for a "way out". Too many defensive driver courses trying to keep my license when I was a kid. Or maybe it is my flight training, always know where you will land if the engine craps out. Expect the worst. Summer will bring a new round of motorcycle courses, and I will burn some vacation days to go.

Anyway, lots of good ideas here, please try and keep it civil, so the thread don't get locked.

[ClarkGriswald]

Ever been working up on a roof and start sliding?? You do whatever you can do at the time, hammer nearby slam the claws into the roof and hang on, no hammer? well do whatever you can..

I can tell ya sometimes when your flyin thru the air you know your goin to hit something at some point.. you just go with the flow. Now you try hittin the ground and "intentionaly" doin a move I doubt you can do it... You very well may roll once or twice but then you compose yourself (if you can) and try to end the rest of the "ride" as fast as possible. Unfortunalty on the street it means you against pavement. Ive done more flying thru the air and slamming into the ground than sliding but If you wanna learn to get off 2 wheelers then try a motorcycle in wet grass or snow.. its amazing how the human body can "crawl" up onto a sliding motorcycle and ride it out but here is the trick.. if you ever find yourself sliding along the road on top of your bike, as soon as that bike touches the shoulder gravel or grass, it WILL turn over and fly.. this will propel you far and high in the air.. been there done that.. if your nice road surface is ending and the curb/grass is comin up quick thats the time to lose the bike and fend for yourself. You DO NOT want to take that trip.. dont forget offroad riding isnt just MX tracks where you fall down.. Think about flyin thru the woods as fast as your machine will carry you, come around a bend and woaw!! giant racoon standing right there.. i have found myself deep inside some of those giant prickerbushes or simply flyin thru the air spinning like if you thru a sock full of other socks ( or a loogey). Guess what stops ya?? Tree's

Some times a roll is a transition between two or more slides (different surfaces, or bumps that throw you up in the air again. Not sure how to quantify how to survive any accident. Always try to stay alert because you never know if there could be something to grab onto or try to avoid while falling/sliding that could help you slow yourself down.

You can never really prepare, there is no one way or technique.

What gets me is that we wore all kinds or armor for MX but we drive on the road with only leather? hahah yikes.. then again Ive shattered my sternum twice while wearing full chest armor so just goes to show you can dress for the crash but you still cant do much for a almost 400 lbs quad landing on you.

Get away from the bike unless you are using it as a sled and get rid of that if the pavement is about to end..