Discouraged Riders

[trbig]

The problem is that people like Webbcraft seem to be the XSception to the rule. It seems like everybody only cares about what it costs NOW.... like the people that spend 5 bucks in gas to drive across town to save 3 cents a gallon.. ??? (20 galons=60 cents "saved")
What they don't realize, is that in the long run, the regular customer is going to save money. Joe Blow comes into Pro's shop because his bike is messed up and won't start. He takes it to the back, put's it on the lift, looks it over, realizes the kill switch is on and it fires right up. Minumum at least one hour fee. Regular customer comes in and same thing happens, usually no cost except the ribbing he will have to take, and the beer he will buy Pro next time he sees him at the restaurant. I have seen this personally with my own stuff. Joe Blow has some small missing part, he gets charged full price. Regular customer... "Well I had one of those laying around in the back.." and more often than not, regular customer's stuff gets pushed to the front burner and gets fixed quicker.
In the long run, it's a better deal for you to be a loyal customer. No one is perfect, and even if he doesn't like to admit it, even Pro isn't. If a shop messes up, let them know so they can fix it right. If they keep messing up... maybe time to find someone else more competent to be loyal to.

Tod

[RS Thornton]

So the question is this -- what is to become of these old bikes that we love and ride so much? If this trend of crappy customer service and the independents taking advantage of people that are loyal to the older bikes spreads and continues, what will become? Will others get tired of this s$%t and decide that a brand new machine is the answer?

when you get tired of it let me know where to pick up your bikes.

If you really got screwed, not just charged for time and suffering than file with BBB and the sec of state. The only work I farm out is tire balancing and machining, I do not have the specialized tools. The local guy that does my specialized work is a local motocross and dirtbike racer. Over a the last few years I have come to trust him, but have never thought about showing him my appreciation with some cold ones or some pie. I think I will stop by this week and let him know his work ethic is appreciate. Thanks for the tip prometheus.

[yamarider]

Well TC, you are exactly right. He had every right to resell those parts. BUT, I would expect that 15+ years of repeated business resulting in thousands of dollars in revenue collected from me should account for something, and he knew it was my XS! I am sure that he gets other wrecks from the salvage yard, not knowing or having a relationship with the owners, and can do what he wants with a clear conscience.

Other businesses all over the place reward customer loyalty -- punch cards, frequent flier miles, good driver discounts, and on and on. The point is, businesses industry wide have some sort of incentive to retain customers, it is a good basic business practice because it is less costly for a business to keep customers than it is to attract new customers.

So not only did he loose a loyal customer over simple greed, I now will not recommend his shop to others.

[GNEPIG]

.. at the time the bike just didnt seem worth the amount of the tow bill/ storage bill, now did it?

..this sounds like the time i bought an ATC 125 from a neighbor[about 20 years ago] down the street for 25 bucks. the guy swore it was junk and it was only good for parts. i pushed it home, cleaned the plug, cleaned the points, adjusted them and set the timing. it started right up! it took all of about 45 minutes and i was blasting back and forth up and down the street. the dude came out of his house and i could see his face turning red, he started yelling and waving his arms at me. of course i didnt stop, i waved and went trail riding instead.
the guy came over to my house later demanding that i give him his three wheeler back. of course i told him to f ck off, but if he had been nice and offered me 50 bucks for it i would have given it back.. i didnt really want the thing anyway, i sold it two days later to someone else for a 100 bucks.
..moral of the story: if dude had not been a d!ck he would have gotten his kids ATC repaired for 20 bucks.

[prometheus578]

"Too close to the problem to see it clearly"

(It's 9:00 and Dr. Phil is over. Personally, I would have rather watched Maury to find out "Who my baby daddy?", but I'll take whatever bad TV programming I can get.)
Yamarider... I'm not your personal "Life Coach" (thanks, Dr. Phil), but may I offer a few observations without incurring your displeasure?
The best way to view any personal event is to step away, and view it as through the eyes of a disinterested party. If the "disinterested party" reaches the same conclusions that you have drawn, then you have the satisfaction of knowing that your original assessment of the situation is correct. If the disinterested party voices another opinion, then...
You shall now be that disinterested party.
Please offer your thoughts on the following scenarios.
Scenario I: Mr. "A" sells his car to Mr. "B", (an auto wholesaler) Mr. "B" then resells the car to Mr. "C", who happens to be Mr. "A"'s neighbor. Mr. "C" plans to pull the engine and put it in his Camaro. Mr."A" sees 'his' old car in Mr."C"'s driveway, and walks over and demands that he be given the carb, intake manifold and starter as they were once his. Mr. "C" refuses, as he would then have to replace these parts to have a functional engine. Mr. "A" then 'eggs' Mr. "C's house.
Question: Who was out of line, Mr "A" or Mr. "C"?

Scenario II: Ben DeBumper just had his car repaired and painted at a body shop owned by Mr. Denton Fender. The bill is payed, and Mr. DeBumper drives off happily. Five miles down the road... some "Winged Harpy", gabbing on her cellphone, blows through a red light and slams into Mr. DeBumper's car. Mr. DeBumper returns to the body shop and demands a refund, as the body panels that were just put on his car are now worthless.
Question: Is Mr. DeBumper out of line?

Scenario III: Ben Dover and Phil McCraken are friends. Mr. McCraken is a carpenter. As a matter of fact, Mr. McCraken built the deck, hot tub and garden shed for Mr. Dover, who paid Mr. McCraken for his time and materials. A little while later, Mr Dover decides to sell his home, and moves away. The home is bought by Mr. Mort Gage, a real estate broker, who promptly jacks up the price a few thousand and puts it back on the market. Mr. McCraken, looking to suppliment his income and plan for his retirement, purchases Mr. Dover's old property from Mr. Gage, with the intent of restoring and reselling it. Mr. McCraken, while inspecting his new property, notices that the garden shed door has a lock on it. Not wanting to break down the door, he calls his old friend, Mr. Dover, and asks if he still has the key. Mr. Dover gets mad and demands that Mr. McCraken give him the deck, the hot tub and the garden shed, as they were once his. Mr. McCraken refuses... as they were figured in the price of the house that he had paid to Mr. Mort Gage. He also refuses, as without these items, he cannot resell the house without replacing them first... something that he didn't budget for. Mr. Dover runs to the Home Owners Association and calls Mr. McCraken a louse and a weasle and says that he does shoddy work.
Question: Who is out of line? Ben Dover for demanding, or Phil McCraken for refusing? And what about Phillip Diaz, who, not really being involved, has a name similar to Mr. McCraken?
Three scenarios, in which you were not personally involved, you must now pass judgement on.
"The cases will be decided here... in our forum... "The People's Court". ("You contestants at home can play along")

[prometheus578]

GNEPIG... how great minds...
Guy came into the gas station thirty years ago. Wanted to have his beater Camaro towed to within a block of a dealership so he could drive it in for a $200 trade-in. I told him..."Let me look at it. If I like it, I'll give you $200... if I don't take it, I'll tow it for you for free. Deal was made.
Found the open vacuum line... ran like a top. Gave the guy a call and he came in the next day with the title. Spent the next two days washing, polishing and buffing. He showed up a few days later, saying that he forgot a few personal things in the trunk and could he retrieve them. "Sure... it's parked around back."
When he saw MY new Camaro glistening in the sun... well, you know what happened, and no, I did not sell it back to him.
Was I wrong? No. Was I dishonest in any manner? No. Did he bring the car to the shop for me to repair, or to just have it towed so he could sell it?
I fix things. That is my trade.
There are many things that I can't do, having neither the skill, nor the time. These things I am forced to pay others to do for me.
I know not what others do for a living, but if it is something that I cannot do for myself, I would enter into a contract with them to do it for me. For this I would compensate them for their effort, as is right.
I do not want to use Yamarider's name, as I don't want him to think that I'm picking on him, so I shall use TRBIG, who had the effrontery to claim that I'd charge an hour's labor just to flip a customer's kill switch!
Scenario IV: I'm currently clearing land in my backyard for a fence. As my truck has a 'holed' piston, I cannot remove all the debris and trash. As TRBIG is known for 'talking trash" , I contract with him to remove my junk. Later I drive by TRBIG's house, and see that he is selling dog houses and 'artsy' sculptures that he has made out of my old scrap wood and scrap iron. Can I demand part of his profits? No... The materials became his as soon as he removed them from my property, to dispose of as he sees fit.
Once there is a release of ownership, be it ATC 125, Camaro, yard junk or motorcycle, the previous owner has no claim to it.

(I make no judgements... just offer other options and opinions)

[prometheus578]

I hate to keep returning to this, but...

Yamarider... As Socrates would say," I have a some questions. Could you please explain a few things to me so that I may understand them better?"

BUT, I would expect that 15+ years of repeated business resulting in thousands of dollars in revenue collected from me should account for something

Socrates asks,"Did you just "Give" him thousands of dollars as a gift of friendship, or were you paying him to perform a service for you? If the money was given as a gift...was not his "gift" to you a running, and mechanically sound machine? I think there was a business contract between you both which you both fulfilled. He provided a service and you compensated him for it Is this not so?"
"Yes, Socrates, this is true."

I am sure that he gets other wrecks from the salvage yard, not knowing or having a relationship with the owners, and can do what he wants with a clear conscience.

Socrates asks, "How has he offended you? Did he steal your bike from you?"
"No, Socrates, he didn't".
"Did was buy a bike from a marketplace; a junkyard that you sold it to."
Yes, Socrates, he did."
"Was this illegal or otherwise morally reprehensible?"
"No, Socrates, it wasn't."
" As he has broken no laws and has not offended you nor offended the Gods, why do you then question his conscience?"

not only did he loose a loyal customer over simple greed

"I question his conscience because he is greedy, Socrates."
"Friend Yamarider... I know not of greed. Can you give me it's definition?"
"Greed is when someone's life is ruled by money or the pursuit of unwarranted personal gain to the detriment of others."
"Thank you for enlightening me so, Good Friend. According to your definition of what is greed, who is greedy? A man who will not part with his rightful possessions without due compensation, or a man who demands that others give up their rightful possessions without offering any sort of compensation?"
"A man who will not part with his possesions is greedy, but a man who demands that others part with their possessions is greedier still, Socrates."
"I am starting to see things a little clearer now, Yamarider. Thank you for guiding me so far."

, I now will not recommend his shop to others.

"Friend Yamarider... when you tell your friends not to do business with this merchant, what will you tell them is the reason?"
"I will tell them that he is Greedy."
"Friend Yamarider... And if they, as I have, for I didn't know the answer, ask you for a definition of greed, will you give the same answer as you have given me?"
"Yes, Socrates, I would. Greed is when someone's life is ruled by money or pursuit of unwarranted personal gain to the detriment of others."
"Friend Yamarider... and if they ask, in order for them to understand greed better, what is an example of a greedy man, what will you tell them?"
"I would tell them that this merchant is a greedy man, for he would not give to me what is not rightfully mine."
"Take care, young friend... for though your associates might agree with you on your definition of greed, they may draw different conclusions as to what act defines the greedy man."

(Oh, to have the time to study the classics again!)

[81XS1100-2006]

Since I first started riding I've encountered a number of different types of riders.

1. those that had been in the saddle seemingly since birth and are therefore unafraid to tear down their engines (these folk usually have the garage and tools to go along with it) These folk wouldn't dream of taking a bike in to a shop, new or old. (why would they?)
2. then there are those (such as myself) who's interest in riding extends to learning how to do as much maintenence as they can on their own. This process takes a long time of building confidence and knowledge. And soon things like changing brake pads or bringing an old bike back to life don't seem so far fetched. We ask for help when we need it & we do as much as we can before we head to a shop.
3. then there are those who have been riding for years and years and are just finished with busting knuckles. I've found a lot of these guys are riding brand new BMW's! With age and experiece comes the abitity to pay those insurance rates I guess!!!
4. (ahem...) Harley riders......
5. Finally those folks who couldn't tell a wrench from a screw-driver. My experience is that these are the most difficult as customers. Much of this comes out of inexperience or just straight up ignorance. Without any hands-on knowledge of what they are asking a mech to do they expect the world and more for a bargain.

I feel very fortunate that the guys and girls around me when I first started riding (at 20) helped me develop the skills that (I feel) contribute to riding with confidence. I know that if something goes wonky on the road I can at least give it my all before I call a mech. as a last resort. Resources like this site are really awesome for those of us unwilling (or unable) to drop $400 just to have a shop take a look.

Luckily I've found a guy here in Mpls/StPaul who has a one man operation, centrally located, who can help me with the things I'm unable to tackle myself. As he's beholden to no-one (except for his girlfriend) he can offer honest rates and great service. (So if you're here in MN- PM me and I'll be happy to send you his details...)

[jeffe]

Same thing goes for the guy here in Central Ohio. Pm me and I will give his number.

[yamarider]

Dang Prome, now I see why you are an XS Guru. When I read your postings, I had flashbacks of college lectures and the time when I watched the Karate Kid. You are very well prosed, what is your degree in? I am suprised that you even watch Dr. Phil, seems like he would be a waste of your time, unless your in need of cheap entertainment.

[pggg]

Prom, is Phil McCracken related to Philip McCavity?

[yamarider]

By the way Pggg, thanks for the support!

[prometheus578]

"It's all Greek to me."

I'm glad you replied, Yamarider. I turned on the computer with the express intention of PM'ing you to explain myself. Oft' times I go too far. You'll note by the time marks of various other posts, that I often write late at night, and like all big babies, get cranky and fussy when overtired. The drawback of writing, though it allows plenty of time to compose thoughts and arguements, is that it disallows the writer to gauge, in real time, the immediate impact that his words may have on others. Without the benefit of watching for responses, I usually just blindly forge ahead, spewing vitriol or unwanted advice, as the mood strikes.
I seek not to offend, but to enlighten in my own twisted way.
Education? A coupl'a Assoc's. Was a Psych major... but the more I learned about mental maladies, the more I started to question my own stability. Got scared... and dropped out during my final class.
Dr. Phil? It's so easy to sit back and pass judgement, or to spout wisdom to others, when one is not directly involved in an emotional situation. Dr. Phil would impress me more if he would tell me what personal counselling, or sage advice, he was giving to himself when he abused and cheated on his first wife.
I watch him during dinner. His monotonous droning masks the noises I make as I eat, never having learned to chew with my mouth closed.

PGGG... Ahhh... the McCraken's are from a long and noble line of Scotsmen. Actually, his grandfather was the clan chieftain, Laird Butz. There were many relatives vying to take his position as chieftain, notably, Hugh Jass and R. Slicker. Once women were given the right to vote and such, they got involved, too.
You may recall Tess Stickle, Jenny Tull and Anita Poken.
Of course, as with any famous clan, there's scandal, too.
Like when Neil Down and Heywood Jablowme were caught together in a compromising position.
Or when, though married at the time, Harry P. Ness was seen in the company of Bea Ver.
And the tragedies... like when Eric Shen caught AIDS from Sharon Needles.
Yes, PGGG, I remember when Eileen Dover and Phillip McCavity had their little fling. Was about the same time as Buster Hyman and Cherry Hertz were seeing each other.
Oh, but it's late again... and I need to get up early. Meeting Chris P. Bacon and Hammond Eggers for breakfast.