K&L Jet Controversy

[prometheus578]

Ok... did the research and read all the posts. "Damn K&L Pilot jets" "42.5 jets have too large of a hole." "42.5 jets have too small of a hole" " "42.5 jets have three holes in the side" "42.5 jets have four holes in the side" "42.5 jets have NO holes in the side" "K&L doesn't know what they're doing"
My thoughts... K&L jets are fine, it's just that people are ordering the wrong ones, or the part's guy at the shop isn't asking enough questions before ordering them for you.

Referencing the K&L and Sudco catalogs: (all 42.5)
Mikuni VM22/210 type: 4 holes(actually 8), and a large bore.
Mikuni BS30/96 type: 3 holes(actually 6), and a small bore.
Mikuni N151.067 type: No holes, and a small bore.

Now, I've read several posts here trying to find out just which type I'm supposed to have, and have found several conflicting reports. Confusion set in (which is my default mode)
As work is dead here and I have three of my machines in the bay, I pull the carbs on the 1100's:
'78E Three holed Mikuni BS30/96 type
'79 Special Three holed Mikuni BS30/96 type
(I have three or four more banks of carbs at home and might check them tonight)
I also checked the Yamaha Fiche on line, but it just states 42.5 but doesn't clarify any further. The carb catalogs do not have an application guide, either. My Yamaha micro fiche is at home, or else I'd check part numbers and see if they change from year to year.
Question: What is the original type that these bikes call for? Three holed or four holed? Could there also be a difference in year and model?
Is the only way to answer by having various people, with various models, all with low mileage and a slim chance of having carb modifications done, pull their carbs and check? HHmm... or should I just call my buddy at Yama down the street, and have him order me an OEM jet based on part number and see what arrives.
Gurus... Thoughts?

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Prom,

Here's a picture posted several years ago in the tech tips about the parts of the carbs, and it shows the pilot jet, but with only 1 side port showing in this view, but there are 2 other ports 90 degrees around the side from the single port.


When I was doing research for matching up the pilots for people ordering from Mike'sXS, the BS 30/96 is the style that matched up with what I have had and seen, and recommended to people!

So....my vote is with that style. Now, whether the K&L kits are that style, or the larger bore kind I don't know, just that we've had numerous Xsives with Pilot circuit troubles, and once they either went back to their OEM pilot jets, or ordered TRUE MIKUNI style jets, and their overly rich problems went away! I vote, K&L= BAD!!!
T.C.

[mro]

K&L Jet Controversy

The bikes are 25 years old. This should be settled.
Hope you got it right TC cause I just got new parts today from XSmike and finished putting carbs back together after work. (upon reading yours and others recommendations) Don't remember even one post saying the K & L's were “OK”. Should reinstall carbs tomorrow after I acquire 3 shims from local shop to finish valves.
All else is peachy on the 80G)

Sucks driven in vans/car when the sun has been shining!
(sure to rain tomorrow )

mro

[prometheus578]

What I've gotten so far...

It's 4:00am and I've been on the this damned 'puter since 6:00. Nowhere, so far, have I found an application guide for pilot jets by model. Not at K&L, nor Sudco, nor Mikuni themselves. (Mikuni Corp. also makes health and beauty products, which is nice to know) Been to the sites that wanted to know if I wanted English or Japanese.
Reread all the posts here concerning jetting and K&L. Found many interesting things, and shall list a few.

"K&L jets way too large" (The difference between a 42.5 and the next size up, or even two sizes up is rather hard to discern with the eye. Leads me to believe that the individual ordered the VM22/210 instead of the BS30/96 type.

Randy stated once that "K&L has no emulsion holes" (He ordered the N151.067 type by mistake?)

Gotsm on 11 Oct. states that, and I believe he was talking about his '79SF, that "They're the originals, as they have four holes" (I pulled my "79SF... and mine have three)
(I'm not trying to single anyone out, just trying to illustrate the confusion on this subject) Then there's the possability that every one is correct, and it's just me that's confused. (I rule nothing out)
I could go on and on, but it's late, I'm tired and at more than my usually degree of cranky.
The great photo you posted, T.C., shows the BS30/96 pilot jets. Shame that it also shows three different styles of Needle Jets (emulsion tubes) for the needle, though all are listed as being the X-2! (Oh Lord, like I needed to see that)
As for needles... referencing the Clymers that has an honored place on my nightstand, I find that the "E", "F", "SF" use the 5GZ6, the"G" and "H"uses the 51Z7, and the "SG", "LG" "SH" and "LH" use the 5GL16. (And helpfully, my Genuine Yamaha Service Manual says the "E" model's needle is a 5GZ6/3)
Which style emulsion tube fits each needle designation... right now I don't care, but I'm sure that it'll be important to me in the morning.(which it already is, but you know what I mean)
Wow... sidetracked by needles when I was ranting about Pilot Jets!
My thoughts at this point are: K&L pilot jets are OK, OR... all carbs came with the same type of pilot jet but someone dicked them up over the years, Or...people order the wrong jets for their bikes, OR... finally, that Yamaha/Mikuni used different Pilot Jet styles in different models and refuses to tell anybody what and which goes where and when.

Now, whether the K&L kits are that style, or the larger bore kind I don't know,

T.C., K&L, Sudco, all distributors and even Mikuni themselves all sell the same three types o' pilot jets; Large bore, small bore (both with varying hole patterns), and no hole small bore.
I totally concur with MRO when he said

The bikes are 25 years old. This should be settled

I shall continue this quest if and when I wake up for work.

[mro]

K & L

prometheus578

I shall continue this quest if and when I wake up for work.

_________________

Contact K & L direct!
Tell them about this "controversy"

They should be happy to clarify "quality?" of there pars for the XS.

mro

[skids]

Re: What I've gotten so far...

Yes, well I hope that you fugure it all out! I really think that Yamaha must have jetted bikes for their destinations. I have carbs from 78 through 81 (minus 79) that had 42.5 pilots, although it is apparant that some on this list believe that 45's were stock and maybe they were for some. I also believe that Mikuni changed there style for the air bleed holes along the way. It is hard to believe that NONE of the K&L's will work, albeit the designated numbers would be quite different. Yes, we need a cross reference!

Originally posted by prometheus578
It's 4:00am and I've been on the this damned 'puter since 6:00. Nowhere, so far, have I found an application guide for pilot jets by model. Not at K&L, nor Sudco, nor Mikuni themselves.

[pggg]

Well prom, if an owner orders pilot jets for an XS1100 they should get the correct BS - type jet delivered from whoever supplies. Not rocket science. If a company continually supply the wrong type of jets for any particular model bike - then the said company must be run by incompetent monkeys. Simple eh?

[prometheus578]

Replies first

PGGG

if an owner orders pilot jets for an XS1100 they should get the correct BS - type jet delivered

There is only one BS type, the BS30/96.
SKIDS

I have carbs from 78 through 81 (minus 79) that had 42.5 pilots, although it is apparant that some on this list believe that 45's were stock and maybe they were for some

Microfiche search this morning showed XS"E"(78) with part #256-14942-45-00... Pilot jet #45, then it goes to XS"F"(79) calling for #256-14142-42-00...Pilot jet #42.5. Pilot jet number remained the same up to XS"H"(81), when my microfiche ran out.
Interesting note: And here's where it gets funny. The fiche for the '79F... Part number for jet... instead of ending in 00, the number ended in AO. Asked around a little... seems that this was used as an extra identifier. California model? European model. Unknown at this point.
An oddity about the carb needles... The jet needle for the 1980 XS1100 SG (microfiche dated 30 Jan, 80) shows #360-14116-07-00, while the same bike, but fiche printed 8 July,81 says #452-14116-16-00. There was no note stating that they just changed the part number, so did they use a different part mid-stream?
Ok, concerning the three types of pilot jets: As a general rule... the VM series, as in VM22/210 type are for smooth bore, round slide, cable operated, non CV carbs. (4 holes, Large bore)
The BS series, as in BS30/96 are for Constant Velocity carbs, such as ours (3 holes, small bore)
The N151.067 series are for flat slide, CV carbs(no holes, small bore)
Again, I'm under the impression that when people are ordering their pilot jets, they either order the wrong series, or they're leaving it up to the parts guy, and he's "just ordering pilot jets"
Either way.... I'm off to Yamaha to order a pilot jet #256-14142-42... and to inquire about the difference between the 00 and the AO designation. No... I'm not gonna let the Yama guy just go in the backroom and hand me a K&L pilot jet. I've got those here. I want the actual Mikuni jet, made for Yamaha... so I can see what it looks like.
Also... that photo shows three styles of needle jets (nozzles). The "E" and the "F" call for #2H7-14941-02-00, and the '79 SH, '80 SG, and '81 H call for #3H5-14941-02-00. My fichwe set isn't complete, so which other bikes used the third one, I don't know. How to match the nozzles up to their specific number, I don't know either. At least, not yet.

[pggg]

There is only one BS type, the BS30/96.

There is only one correct jet, the BS type.

[prometheus578]

Thank you, PGGG

That's my contention, also.
Back from Yama....
No one could tell me what the AO, instead of the 00 designation means. Tried to order pilot jet #256-14142-42-AO (Discontinued)
"Ok, gimme #256-14142-42-00". (superceded, new number is 4G0-14142-42-AO)
"Ok, gimme one o' dem."
Should be here next Thursday, $10.69 (my cost $5.89)
Yamabuddy will call Yamaha parts hotline next week and ask about the 00 versus AO thing. Also to clarify what I already suspect is correct... BS30/96 series jets.

[pggg]

Here's how my conversation goes when ordering jets from a motorbike shop.

Me. "Can I have some mikuni BS-type pilot jets please"
Counter. "What bike are they for?"
Me. "They're for an old jap bike"
Counter(as they start hauling out 362 different catalogues) "We'll need to know what bike it is"
Me. "Can I have some mikuni BS-type pilot jets please"
Counter. "Are you sure that's what they are?"
Me. "Yes thank you"
Counter. "What bike was it again?"
Me. "They're for a mikuni carb"
Counter. There's a few different types you know"
Me. "Yes I know thank you"
Counter. "O.K. we'll get some in"
Me. "Thank you"
Counter. "What bike did you say it was?"
Me. "It's a 1978 one"
Counter. " O.K."
Me. "O.K."
Counter. "Bye"
Me. "Bye"

Never had a problem - mains, pilots or airs. About the needles, the shorter one in the pic is a 5Z1, the longer is a 5GZ6. Difference is the 5Z1 tapers 2mm before the 5GZ6. A richer needle. Tubes are the usual 78E 266 X2.

[prometheus578]

"Oh, he's a great conversationalist"

Here's how my conversation goes when ordering jets from a motorbike shop

PGGG, yeah, that's about how the conversation should go. Problem, I think, is that a lot of people aren't being that specific, and ending up with "jets with no holes", and "jets with bores too large".
Just 'cause you know the right answer... doesn't mean we'll believe you. And when I find the definative answer(for me), doesn't mean anyone will believe me either. (Whether K&L jets are lousy, or whether it's just people ordering the wrong size)
K&L doesn't make these jets... just like a lot of other places where people order them from, they don't make them either. They just distribute them. The ones from K&L are probably the same as the ones from Sudco or anyone else. (K&L just throws a few dollars more on them!)

[DiverRay]

Prometheus,
I think the problem has been the people that order the K&L rebuild/jet kit for the XS1100. The jets that come with the kit are wrong, not the way it's been ordered. I think most of us know what we want, and how to ask for it. I've founs that I need to watch what is being sent, as it won't alway's fit.
Ray

[prometheus578]

Thanks, Diver Ray

A very valid point. Saturday I was looking in various catalogs, scanning the pics and trying to read just what came with all the different kits. I was probably well on my way to reaching the same conclusion... when the owner's wife brought in two plates of Christmas cookies.
I grabbed a plate and retreated back to the service bay as I'm not the type that likes to share free food. Umm... I sort of forgot about carb-jets, and concentrated on Carb-ohydrates for the rest of the day.

[skids]

The picture is interesting. The pilots have six air holes: 1, 2, 1, 2. I ordered some from Dennis Kirk that also had six holes: 2, 2, 2. I realize that it shouldn't make any difference.