What's rattlin in my crankcase?

[fbcaf]

I have been reading and watching for awhile now, but haven't really had any issues to deal with on my 80 xs1100g until last week. Except for a 2nd gear fix which I inherited from the PO. I had a local mechanic repair that with new 2nd and 5th gears. That was about 2 months ago, and the bike has been great since then until last week. I kept thinking I felt a little extra vibration, but everything ran fine and the tranny shifted fine. Last week I pulled up to where I work and turned off the bike, and something didn't sound normal. I don't know what it was that I heard, but I restarted fine and revved the engine a little. I then heard a rattle on acceleration that wasn't there before, coming from the right side around the clutch. I also tried to slip it into 1st gear and it wuldn't go easil;y - like I had the rpm's too high, but they were only around 1000. I trailered the bike to the local repair shop where the mechanic spent a couple of hours tearing into it. He found nothing loose or broken in the clutch or the crankcase. He told me it would cost me about $1000 labor to go any farther into the engine. The engine sounds fine, and I couldn't make it rattle again for him. As I was about to take back the bike, I was sitting on it with the motor idling, in neutral, when out of the blue, the bike lurched, made grinding noises and died. Nothing was touched or bumped, it did it by itself. I thought the motor must have siezed, since the neutral light was still on. After a few minutes, I restarted the bike and it idled fine. I'll be trailering it back home next Tuesday.

I am the guy that sends stuff to the mechanic if possible, but I can't afford to put more money into this. I am desperate enough to have a go at it myself, if need be. Anybody have any clues? Could it be that something like a circlip came loose off the countershaft where 2nd and 5th were replaced?

Help!!

[GNEPIG]

.. take the oil pan off first to see what might be in there
you may find a circlip
.. then lay on the floor and look up into the trans and move things around one of the gears may not act like the others
then write back with what you see, i'm sure there will be other suggestions for you here also

[chevy45412001]

clutch adjustment

first i would eliminate easy fixes before tearing into the motor (requiring more gaskets ,money) Make sure the clutch is adjusted properly. The adjustment is done under the right hand cover held on by two screws. The slack is then taken out up by the lever. I know you have a bible right? (repair manuel) That spells out the exact procedure to go about adjusting the clutch. If that does not cure your prob then i would go deeper .

[MAXIMAN]

I agree....check the clutch. If it sounds like it's coming from the area of the clutch housing...and it won't go into gear easily then it probably is the clutch. Anything in that clutch could be broken (ie broke pressure plate) and causing this behavior.

[prometheus578]

What worries me is that he said that he was just sitting there in neutral, and the bike jumped into gear by itself, and then died. Not being intimate with the tranny on these things, but sounds like a gear, for whatever reason, is loose on it's spline. Spinning around with the engine going, and then slides over and engaged. And a loose gear, engaging when other gears are engaged, would then cause the tranny to jam, killing the engine.
HHmm.. there's a thought. I've got an 1100 in the shed, donated, that the owner said was jammed and stuck in second. Could be a loose gear, engaging two other gears. ? Just a thought.

[chevy45412001]

ok i know what

drain the oil,pull off the cover over the clutch. Now as your looking aty the clutch assy look to the left,there is a gear there,behind that gear is a rather large bolt head with a good sized washer on it. check to make sure it did not back out,and is either hitting the back of the gear or came out all together, Don't ask how i know this. I'm not sure what eXSactly the bolt holds in place but i think it's the shift drum?I saw this on my partzer bike and that was the reason for jumping gears.

[fbcaf]

Rattle - Rattle!!

That's my brain rattlin'. Thanks, guys for your replies. I haven't got the bike back from the shop - I'll trailer it home tomorrow and begin to tear into it. I've got a couple of friends with tools. The mechanic said he checked the clutch and everything was fine. I know he adjusted it because I could hardly depress the lever when I climbed on it. Anyway, I'll report back when I get the covers off.
By the way, our chapter had its annual 4th of July run yesterday, and I rode a friends '04 Harley Road Glide 170 miles. That's why my brain's rattlin!
You guys are amazing with the help you provide. Thanks.

[skids]

Re: Rattle - Rattle!!

That does not seem right, unless heavy duty springs were installed. Maybe the gizmo that turns with the clutch cable to depress the springs is not in there right?

Originally posted by fbcaf
The mechanic said he checked the clutch and everything was fine. I know he adjusted it because I could hardly depress the lever when I climbed on it.

[uk1.1s]

Some suggestions - long sorry

My 2 cents worth relates to the gear shifter drum and the shift quadrant (pawl?) thingy.

Looking in the cover behind the gear shift lever you should find a gear quadrant .... that is a metal arm with a curved row of gear teeth at the end of it... this is not a tiny thing so you will probably notice it first off.

It's item 1 below.... as my description above is pretty awful



(Thanks Ken... above from Ken Talbots excellent XS microfiche pages)

This gets moved back and forward by the gear foot lever outside and in turn meshes with small "dowels" at the end of the gear shifter drum. By moving the drum around the gears are shifted ... (without going into the stuff inside the cranckcase).

Now... it sounds to me like something is a bit wrong here and gears may be half shifting (missing dowel?) so whilst you were sitting outside the shop the shift drum rotated slightly and put you into 1st or 2nd. Not as mad as it seems as the shift drum is sprung slightly to help it go into gear.

Now previously here some owners have found that the shift drum "dowels" fall out and this may be the source of difficult shifting, strange sounds, and the wierd jump into gear you experienced (if the drum was in a odd position).

Chances are you'll find whatever is the problem in the oil pan once you take it off.


BTW - Chevy's tip is a good steer too - but I'm not sure how the jumping into gear could have happened...however...

Had a bad experience myself with the primary drive gear (I think the gear Chevy mentions). This comes out into the clutch area - (have to take the clutch side engine cover off) just forward of the clutch basket and drives it by meshing to the gear teeth at the back of the clutch basket itself.

Now.... if the nut holding this on is not done up tight with a tab washer behind it locking it in place, it can loosen and let the gear move forward along the shaft.... In my case shattering the clutch basket when I shifted into 2nd gear whilst slowing down. Because of the way this has a knock on effect with the transmission I did find a bit of trouble changing gear alittle before the blow-up - a huge bang and then the sound of a bag of bolts inside the engine..... Made a good mess that one! Only myself to blame after a re-build curing something else. Followed by an extensive repeat rebuild to carefully clean aluminium swarf from all oilways as you can imagine.

Obviously at this point - if you catch it early it will be a simple case of tightening up and ensuring the lock washer is bent up tight against the flats of the nut. Need to lock the gear from turning to tighten things here ... I usually stick a large flat screwdriver into the gear teeth where they mesh with the clutch basket.... or I think this gear may have a particular part of the crankcase face where you can do this (which is mentioned in the Clymer manual).

Best of luck

[fbcaf]

We took off the oil pan yesterday, hoping to find . . .something; but there was nothing loose in there at all. Serious as it may be, at least if you find something in the pan, you know sorta' what's wrong.As we inspected the counter shaft( I think that's what it is) all the gears seemed in great shape, and worked properly. The only thing I thought might be a problem was that I could move 5th gear back and forth a little with my finger, and it would "click" with 2nd while in neutral. Conceivably, that could be the noise I heard before. I don't think I could move it quite enough to cause it to engage, though.

I have to wait until tomorrow to get the side covers off, but at least I have some more things to look for. If everything seems fine on the sides, I will attempt to pull the gears out and check to see if maybe the "c clip" next to 5th (or is it 2nd?) came unclipped. It is very hard to see in there with the bike only on the centerstand. We have a bike lift that my friend uses on his Harley, but can't figure out how to get it to work on this bike. I am trying to avoid draining all the liquids to turn it upside down, and I will be doing most of this alone since my friend drives over-the-road.

Thanks, guys for the input. Right now I appreciate any ideas that anyone has. I have never taken apart and worked on a bike before, so this is new territory for me. One of the guys at Bible Study this morning said that when he started tearing into his machine was when he really got to know his bike personally. I can see how this would engender intimacy between a guy and his ride. I only wish I had more time to give it right now. Here in Wisconsin we have had some fantastic riding days the past two weeks, and she's sittin' on the centerstand! What a waste! I will learn about her through this experience though. Thanks again, guys.

Sam

[John]

I also had the problem with the nut holding the primary drive gear in place. Mine loosened up and worked it's way off the shaft, but was jammed up against the clutch basket, and couldn't fall off if it wanted to. It acted as though the clutch was engaged even when I was squeezing it. I could put it in gear, squeeze the clutch, but the bike still wanted to roll forward.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey there Pastor Sam,

As mentioned above, the large bolt and washer that secures the Countershaft in place on the clutch side could have come loose, and since you said that you had the 2nd/5th gears replaced, they would have had to remove and replace it during the process. So...THEY SHOULD TAKE THE CLUTCH APART, and check behind it. When he "checked" the clutch, did he actually pull the right crankcase cover OFF, or did he just look under the clutch adjustment cover?

Below is a picture of that bolt,(it's upside down!) you can see the large clutch shaft in the lower corner. The large washer has a shoulder, and if it's not properly centered then the bolt won't hold it's torque!


IF you find that bolt loose, you could first contact the shop that did the job originally, and ask them if they warranty their work, and if they do, then you could take it back to them to fix it AGAIN!?

But if you decide to fix it yourself, Please read the tech tips in this section FIRST even BEFORE you attempt to take it apart!
Tranny repair tips section
Good Luck, T.C.

[fbcaf]

Thanks for the input!!!!

I have printed out much of the info here and have my Clymers book, and am on my way to my friend's garage where my bike is. I plan to go step by step through all the suggestions you've given until I find the problem. Hopefully, it is just something that can be wrenched tight again. I honestly can't see any evidence that suggests a major problem, but it scares me to think that it could change gears on me by itself - specially scootin' down the expressway.
BTW, I have a Clymers Manual for 1978-1979, published in 1980. Since my bike is a 1980 G, is this manual going to be the same, or have there been changes?
I will be back home late tonight, so I will try to post what, if anything, I have found out today by morning. Thanks again for the help - and the pictures.

[fbcaf]

Nothing Yet!

Yesterday I only had about an hour and a half so I pulled off the clutch. It looks to be almost new. Virtually no wear anywhere. As near as I can tell everything was in its proper place and tight. The bolts behind the clutch are tight, and there seems to be little wear on any gears. This is on a bike with about 30k miles, and has already experienced 2nd gear problems which were fixed this spring. I can't find any problems on the cluch side.

I am going out today to check the shift lever side. I am still wondering if the problem is on the gears replaced on the countershaft. When the mechanic put the new gears on, he read some Bob Jones material off the Merriam web site and said he moved the spacer from one side of fifth gear (or was it 2nd?)to the other side, to give more mating surface for the dogs. Now it seems that 2nd gear moves very slightly from side to side on the counter shaft - enough to touch the dogs on fifth while in neutral. Could it be that this is the problem?? I cannot find anything else, or any evidence of another problem. Would this make it hard to get into first gear? Would this cause the bike to lurch into gear all by itself? Have I been riding the Harley too much?

If I don't find any problem on the shift lever side, I will attempt to drop the counter shaft out the bottom and check that out more closely. Let you know . . .

[GNEPIG]

.. you are getting closer grass hopper
remove the shaft with those gears on it and put the spacer back were it belongs.. the gear running/rubbing against the clip might not be a good idea