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**TopCatGr58** · 01-08-2005, 04:32 PM

Hey there Rick,

These trannies are CLUNKY, and so the shift up thru neutral into 2nd needs to be a deliberate one! Once you get it into 2nd, if it doesn't act like it wants to jump back out of second, then it's NOT the dredded 2nd gear problem.

One, you could try repositioning the gear shift foot lever a few splines lower on the shaft to give you more up shift leverage!

Secondly, there is an alignment process for the shift drum and the shifting pawl, I don't have the link to the thread that explained that, had some pictures as well that show the alignment marks on the shift drum and the shift pawl, and when the bike is shifted into 2nd gear, those marks should line up, if not, then you can adjust the position of the shift pawl and lever so that they do! I'll search and post those pictures.

BTW, Welcome to the world of Xsiveness, or in your case,
X-jiveness?

!!!

**rickmcdougald** · 01-08-2005, 04:39 PM

XJ1100J - 2nd Gear Question ...

Thanks for your info TC.
I've got the case split. I could do anything I needed at this point. I'm interested in any info that you can round up!
Signed, Hmmm, XJ-ive?!
RLMcD

**TopCatGr58** · 01-08-2005, 06:01 PM

Hey there Rick,

This picture was taken with the engine upside down!!

The shift drum is to the upper right of my finger, note the little NOTCH/line etched into the side of the drum at around 12 o'clock!? Then follow the shift pawl, the lever that is resting against the drum, at around 3 o'clock position there is a similar line etched on the pawl, those lines need to align when the bike is in 2nd gear!

In the below fuzzy picture, the shift lever is still in place, and at the bottom right corner, you can see a slotted screw and lock nut, that is where you loosen and adjust the position of the shift lever to get the etched lines to align!

WHY do you have the cases SPLIT??

I thought you said it was running okay, and now you have the engine pulled and the case split already?? Or do you just have the side engine covers off, like the gear shift cover off, hopefully, and NOT the actual upper and lower cases split

**rickmcdougald** · 01-09-2005, 08:55 AM

Yes Sir, split.
It's OK, calm down. There, that's better.
Now then, all gaskets, seals (Yamabond #4 included), and lock washers will get replaced. I needed to know, before she goes back together, if there is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Thank you for your shift-lever-alignment description and pictures.

RLMcD

**TopCatGr58** · 01-09-2005, 09:40 AM

Well, since you're already in there, you may want to closely inspect the gears on the Countershaft, specifically the dogs and slots on 2nd and 5th, as well as 1st and 4th. These are the ones that are square cut and likely to get rounded off from years of use, and shifting in and out of gear, and it's that rounding off that causes them to pull apart instead of staying engaged. Yamaha later on undercut the dogs/slots, and several of us have done the Dremmel fix to slightly undercut them, others have just purchased the newer gears from Yamaha=$$.

You may want to look at the tech tips, the Dremmel fix section, and see the "Extreme" example of worn dogs on 5th gear. If I were you, I'd go ahead and clean up/undercut/backcut those interfaces on those gears if they show much wear/polishing appearance on the mating surfaces, cause it's only a matter of time.

Although, from viewing the tranny problems POLL results, about 50% of Standard/Special owners haven't had problems, but almost 50% HAVE. Do you like to bet!? Good luck/skill on getting it back together....sounds like you know what you're doing!!
T.C.

**rickmcdougald** · 01-09-2005, 04:38 PM

Thank you, TC,
What have you heard from those who've tried the other method: moving the washer.
If I need to undercut the dogs/slots, I will have it done.
I would however like to hear from others who've tried one or the other methods, though.
By the way, TC, I really like the way that this forum is used.
Thanks to everyone for keeping it professional.
RLMcD A&P

**Dennyz** · 01-09-2005, 05:16 PM

rickmcdougald,

I talked with a local bike shop that did a lot of tranny fixes on XS back when they first came out. They always did the washer swap and never had a problem. The only concern I have heard with moving the washer is that the washer is a thrust surface to protect the cir-clip. Without the washer it is theoretically possible for the cir-clip to be popped or ground off by the moving gear. I have never heard of it actually happening.

The reason for moving the washer is to permit deeper engagement of the shift dogs. The Dremel fix is to improve the holding ability of the shift dogs. I recommend both.

I left the washer in the original location, ground a washers worth of thickness off the gear thrust surface on the dog side and installed a second washer to take up the slack. All it took was a drill press and a cheep grinding stone on a ¼” arbor, but probably more work than necessary.

I found that if the problem is addressed right away the Dremel fix and washer move are all that is needed. If the bike is continued to be drive (and shifted) the kicking out gear will damage the shift fork and left long enough, damage the shift drum. Once the shift fork and shift drum are damaged, there is a good chance the Dremel fix and/or washer move will not hold up.

I recently sold the ’79 Special that I did the above fix to. The problem showed up around 32K miles and had over 60K when sold with no signs of shifting problems. Now I have two Special with less than 20K on them and expect the problem to show up on at least one of them in the future (probably the one I drive).

Happy Fixing

**TopCatGr58** · 01-10-2005, 08:03 PM

Hey there again Rick,

Well, DennyZ is a definite authority on many/all things XS11! All I can tell you is that I've done the Dremmel on 3 bikes, didn't move the washer on any of them! Mine is now 4 years on the fix, but only a few thousands miles....not a daily rider, mostly rallies and such, but I hammer it pretty good, and can pop a 3 foot wheelie in first with just a crack of the throttle and no slipping/popping out of gear!!

The factory fix is just undercutting the interfaces, they seem to engage a fair amount, and with the undercutting, that keeps them holding together, so that's why I don't vote for moving the washer!? Plus they are discontinued from Yamaha, so a bit hard to find an extra one?!

As Denny said, I stopped riding mine when it started misbehaving, in 1st first, then progressed to 2nd a few months later. And since yours wasn't necessarily acting up, then your shiftforks and drum should be in good repair, and a simple slight undercutting of the dogs/slots would be good preventive maintainance without having to go for the extra washer!? YMMV!

Thanks for the Professional comment, we try!

**rickmcdougald** · 01-10-2005, 11:49 PM

Hi again, TC,
There are many opinions about undercutting vs washer-moving.
It looks like undercutting is the best choice for Arlington because the gears, even with only 20,000 miles on them, have some rounding on the dogs.
OK, fine. But my training and experience requires me to ask for the manufacturer's instructions and dimensions. I understand that new gears are no longer available through Yamaha. I'll have a machinist do the work, but need more than informal guidelines.
So, whaddya' think? Do you know where I can obtain the Yamaha official instructions? Have I passed by them on this site? I have the Yamaha maintenance manual, but it's Copyright 1981.
-Wanting to do it right,
RLMcD

P.S. on my first posting, I misspelled "Cam Tensioner" as "Can Tensioner"! Some first impression, eh?

**ratbyk** · 01-11-2005, 01:34 AM

Interaction

dont worie aboot ti spilig rik. As lown as we cin undstan yor qweston an yo comrend or answa itl wowk.
Ken/Sooke

**Jerry** · 01-11-2005, 09:40 AM

As far as I know, the gears/gaskets/forks and other parts are still available from Yamaha. A few items, like the 2nd gear washer, are not available. There is a quick reference parts list for the "2nd gear fix" at:

http://www.rctvonline.net/xs11/secondgearaddendum9.html

**Dennyz** · 01-11-2005, 10:54 AM

I'll have a machinist do the work, but need more than informal guidelines.So, whaddya' think? Do you know where I can obtain the Yamaha official instructions?

It is unlikely any "Official" instructions exist. I believe Yamaha's procedure was to replace the gears. Most consider this problem a factory design flaw. I read somewhere Yamaha did this to improve shifting speed. The Dremel Fix came about (much later) because people did not want to pay the shop time and parts cost.

It is actually pretty easy to figure out what machining needs to be done by looking at the wear marks on the dogs. With so many XS'ers applying the Dremel Fix with great success, that may be all that is needed? The worst that can happen is the dogs begin to slip again. Even if new gears where purchased, they should have the Dremel Fix (or equivalent) done to them before they are installed.

I believe the washer swap came about as a fix for when new parts where being installed.

**John** · 01-11-2005, 04:11 PM

Find an independent bike shop that has an older guy turning wrenches. By him a coffee, ask him if he could recommend a good machine shop that does work for his shop. Telll him what the problem is. They will know just what needs to be done. The old guy may be able to do it himself. I had 1st & 2nd done on mine for $65.

**TopCatGr58** · 01-11-2005, 07:54 PM

Hey Rick,

Sorry if you got any misconceptions, the gears are still available as far as I know, and like others have also posted! As for exact measurements, I don't believe they are really needed. As DennyZ stated, many have done the DREMMEL fix, using a Dremmel, not a machinist's lathe, and having very successful results!

So...a machinist should be able to eyeball the two gears, their dogs and slots, and should be able to mill/grind off just enough material to make a nice flattened, yet a few degrees of undercut angle on the dogs and a matching angle on the slots! And they should be able to ensure they take the same amount from each dog and slot, so that when it's all done, all of the dogs will contact the slots at the same time when engaged!

Print out the undercutting/grinding diagrams that I posted, and take them to your machinist, he should be able to figure it out!!

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