more clutch woes

[beechfront]

well if i understand correctly... the problem is due to a worn pressure plate which is either a) unavailable or b) exstremely xspensive.

the xtra metal plate fixes the problem just the same.

[pgg]

Hi there yam, well, a 25y/o clutch simply doesn't have original brand new tolerances. Nothing worse than a slippy clutch - you gotta do SOMETHING to cure it.

Stiffer springs are a real help. Gets to the stage where you can change oils, change pads, sandpaper plates, adjust screws and cables till you're blue in the face! Won't do nothin. Main cause of slipping on these clutches is the worn pressure plate.

Options are - 1. A brand new pressure plate.
2. An extra steel plate to compensate.
3. Grind the thrust plate 'stalks' to compensate.

There's no mystery, all you're doing is altering the clutch back to original tolerances.

[chevy45412001]

springs

i tried the hd springs first sign of slippage,did not help me. Like i said in the other post i went with the extra steel myself. But recently i'm thinking of trying to get a new pressure plate. Thats just me.

[stevec5000]

I wish I could get my clutch to slip, I can fix that! After 6 years I still can't get the plates to RELEASE so I can put it in gear but there doesn't seem to be anyway to fix that. I've tried 3 complete clutches and they all stick. If I start the engine in neutral it can't be put into gear. Well, it can but without a really loud clunk. The P.O. busted first gear trying to jam it into gear so I start the engine with it in second since I can't use first.
It's not a problem of adjustment or anything like that, the pressure plate moves quite a ways away from the discs when it's released but the plates won't separate since there's nothing between the to make them separate.
If I clean all the parts and put everything together it works great until I add oil then all the plates stick like it was super glue!
Some oil works better than others so I've tired using different kinds of oil. The last thing I tried was to drill all the steel plates, like brake discs, and that helped some. It made shifting easier but it still sticks badly when in neutral. Any ideas?

[Geezer]

This is going to require a tear down by a qualified mechanic.

Geezer

[stevec5000]

Originally posted by Geezer
This is going to require a tear down by a qualified mechanic.

Geezer

What nonsense! You aren't talking about the 19 year old high school dropouts that work at the dealers are you? I'm more qualified to work on it than any of them. I'd never let anyone from a shop touch my bike. I've had the clutches apart dozens of times and measured all the clearances, etc. and everything is in perfect condition. I still can't explain why the oil makes the plates stick together like glue but I know it has nothing to do with a mechanic or a tear down!

[Geezer]

Originally posted by stevec5000

What nonsense! You aren't talking about the 19 year old high school dropouts that work at the dealers are you? I'm more qualified to work on it than any of them. I'd never let anyone from a shop touch my bike. I've had the clutches apart dozens of times and measured all the clearances, etc. and everything is in perfect condition. I still can't explain why the oil makes the plates stick together like glue but I know it has nothing to do with a mechanic or a tear down!

I don't consider the kids working in a shop qualified but obviously the problem you're having isn't going to be easilly solved by guesses from people thousands of miles away. Somebody with the proper experience needs to look at the problem and you're too far away for me to do it.

Geezer

[xs1100yam]

Hi there Steve,
Your symptom sound like a clutch housing or clutch boss problem; are they damaged ? Workshop manual says:

"Galling on the friction plate dogs of the clutch housing or galling on clutch plate splines will cause erratic operation" (Sic)

But I suppose you've already check ?

[xs1100yam]

Hi there PGG
Well if you're sure the pressure plate is dead, you should replace it... ( But up to 1.6 mm wearing, it should works fine ! )
It's still availlable from Yamaha; reference is : 2H7-16352-00 @ 40 Euros "full price" and incl. taxes I think it's aproximately $ 30.
Not a big deal to get a clutch working fine for another 100 000 miles


I was talking about "CAR engine oil" because they contains "additives" reducing the metal parts wearing (crankshaft / bearings, piston + rings / cylinders, camshaft / valves heads, sprokets in gear box, etc...)
They are fine in cars engines or in some bikes like BMW or GUZZI because they're using "dry clutches"... But with "wet clutches", anti-friction is nonsense because you precisely need friction to avoid that slipping !!! I've experienced such problem on a XV 1100 Virago.
The cure have been:
- Drain old oil and remove oil filter
- Rinse engine with low quality oil (at least 3 or 4 time)
- Clean friction plates with strong thinner (warm thinner is better ) like "trichlore". In fact, impregnated fiber plates are difficult to clean and it's better to use brand new plates, but I know you'll prefer the cheaper solution
- By the way, deglaze steel plates with steelwool or sandpaper.
- Put new filter and MOTOBIKE OIL (Ipone or equivalent...)

If nothing else works, try this solution !

[stevec5000]

No, there is no damage and all the parts are perfect. Problem is when oil is added it makes all the plates stick together like glue.
If I assemble the clutch dry it works great but locks up solid when I add oil. If I take out the plates I can barely pull them apart by hand. It seems to need something to push the plates apart when the pressure is released but there isn't anything like that so they stay stuck together. Some clutch designs have springs or O-rings between the plates but not these. I have to use oil in the engine then it gets on the clutch so I guess it will continue to stick until I find plates that are not attracted to oil.

[ratbyk]

Clutch Drag

Steve, what kind of oil are you using? I use Castrol GTX 20-50. Have for the 3 1/2 years that I have owned the Ratbyk. I have put more than 25,000 km on it. Never had slip and the only time I have any drag is when I first start it from cold. Once warmed up I shut it off, place in gear and restart holding the rear brake on. This breaks the plates loose and I have no problems until the bike has cooled down again. Once the plates have been broken loose in this way I can even shift from neutral into 1st with no clunk.
I adjust under the clutch cover about ever 2500kms then adjust cable free play at the lever.
Ken/Sooke
78E Ratbyk
82 FT500 "lilRat"

[xs1100yam]

Hi Steve,

Thousand and thousand XS clutches are working fine without special plates or special features to pull them apart and yours should work fine as well !
Assuming that :
1 - Parts are in good shape
2 - Controls are set properly,
the only unknown parameter is "oil quality"...

I agree with Ratbyk: Castrol GTX 20-50 is fine. Japanese "IPONE" oil give also good results, but I don't know if you can get localy ?
To get good results, it's important to rinse the engine several times.

Oil quality is more important that it appear...


Patrick

[jetmechmarty]

I have put all kinds of oil in my bikes. I've used MOBIL 1 motorcycle oil to store brand 10W40 (car oil). The only thing I haven't used is drain oil! I haven't suffered any known adverse effects from any of them.

I would very seriously doubt this is an oil problem. I know this post isn't a great deal of help, but I think it safe to eliminate blaming the oil IMHO.

Peace

[xs1100yam]

So, but what else

Steve says : "works fine when dry" but when he add oil, it seems to be glued
Clutches are pretty simple systems, if plates, housing and boss are really in good shape, I havn't more ideas

[Dennyz]

I have discovered that a worn pressure plate on the XS clutch can cause the clutch to slip when the discs and springs are in spec.

When all the metal and fiber discs are removed from the clutch hub, there remain a metal disc held in by a very fine wire. This is the pressure plate. On the underside of this plate, there is a spring washer, that over time, grinds a groove in the back side of the pressure plate. It does not seem like much, but the deeper this groove is, the less engagement pressure on the entire clutch. With the very small tolerances inside the clutch, this is enough to cause the clutch to slip.

I discovered this after changing all the clutch components, only to have the slipping return within a thousand miles or so. I think the pressure plate is still available from Yamaha. I took a cheaper route. I simple flipped the pressure plate over. I lightly sanded the grooved side with 220 and WD-40 to remove any burrs. The clutch has not slipped since. This started around 30k miles. I have put over 50k since this change.

This procedure is very simple and required the same tools as replacing the clutch plates. The clutch hub is the part of the clutch that the metal discs ride on (the fibers ride on the clutch basket). The pressure plate is removed by pushing the fine retaining wire out from the inside of the hub, while pushing on the pressure plate.