Dyna 3.0 Coil Upgrade Completed - Ugly Duckling

[kboehringer]

XS Friends,

Today, I got my first test drive on the Ugly Duckling with it's new coils. Dyna 3.0 OHM with ballast resistor removed & wiring bypassed.



The bike had been running like crap and I was certain the carbs, etc. were good as gold. The meter showed my 37 year old coils were good.

On a whim, I purchased and replaced the coils. PROBLEM SOLVED! Bike runs extremely well although I may need a small tweek on carbs to make a TINY improvement in the midrange.

SPECIAL NOTE #1:
This is NOT a quick and easy bolt-in. It will take a little work and creativity. The orientation of the plug wire terminals necessitates the use of small angle brackets (Home Depot) as described by "Crazy Steve" in the historical threads. This may have been a little easier for me with an '80 than it was for him with the '79 horn in the way.

In order to keep the frame shroud bracket a bit more creativity is required and a couple home made spacers to use the OEM coil bolts and retain that guard/cover. Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the performance and the look (although I may ditch the red Dyna Coil Wires).

SPECIAL NOTE #2:
There may be some bad information out there about the use of a ballast resistor with Dyna's 1.5 OHM coils. Dyna recommends not using any ballast resistor with ANY of their coils. This is clearly indicated in the instructions, on-line, and from a rep via phone. I'm using the 3.0's so it's not an issue. Those in the market for replacements may want to verify with DYNA before purchasing.

Sincerely,

[3Phase]

Kurt, it depends on the application and type of coils.

You should ask Dyna but they probably have different coil designs for traditional inductive/Kettering ignition and Capacitive Discharge Ignition.

The Primary resistance of their coils may not be as relevant as selecting the correct coil for your ignition system and a low-resistance CDI coil definitely should not be used with a ballast resistor.

[kboehringer]

Coil Removal Required Now for Valve Adjustments

it depends on the application and type of coils.

Scott,
Thanks for the reply. My knowledge of the wide variety of ignition systems available across the many OEM manufacturers and many bikes is limited compared to yours. However, some have posted that using the 1.5ohm DYNA on our XS11's system while retaining the BR is a viable option. According to DYNA, it is not. I spoke to their tech line before ordering the 3.0 Green Coils.

I BELIEVE (without enough technical prowess in this area to be 100% certain) that the Green Dyna 3.0's are the best aftermarket choice for our XS11's.

Today, I'm going to order three more set of Dyna 3.0 Greens today and avoid any antique coil issues with my other XS11's !

Additional Special Note:
It would appear that the configuration I used to install these coils (very similar to Crazy Steve's write-up) is very likely going to require removal of the coils to make a valve adjustment. OUCH! Since adjusting the valves is not something we should be doing too frequently, its not a big deal but it is going to be a PITA when required. There just isn't enough room to slip that valve cover out like there is with the OEM configuration.

Respectfully,

[3Phase]

Thanks, Kurt!

I can't find a Dynatek 3.0 except the 3000 system. Colors can change, are you using the Dynatek DC1-1, 3 Ohm coils?

I haven't talked with a Dyna tech but the DC1 PDF installation instructions on their site manage to neatly dodge the ballast resistor question by recommending using replacement coils that are within 10% of the original coil resistance.

To follow Dyna's recommendation, a 1978 or '79 XS1100 would use a pair of DC2-1, 1.5 Ohm coils and the original ballast resistor.

1980 to '84 in Canada would use DC1-1, 3 Ohm coils with no external ballast resistor.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Scott and Kurt,

I can see and appreciate the point about Dyna NOT wanting the use of a ballast resistor with their coils because it will drop the 12+Volts going to the coil and could thereby reduce the overall KV's produced in the secondaries. However, as we know, OUR TCI needs to see 3 ohms on that circuit. As Kurt and the "collective" has recommended before, the BEST alternative is to use the Dyna's DC1-1 3.0 ohm coils, and to remove the ballast resistor. This way the coils see the full 12+Volts ALL of the time, and the TCI sees the 3.0 ohms it needs ALL of the time, so both components are running within their operational specs and no harm will be done to either the coils or the TCI.

Remember, that tech tip was written ~2002, and was what was thought to keep the OEM ignition circuit as close to OEM specs as possible. The update to convert ALL XS's regardless of year to the 3.0 ohm style and removal of the Ballast Resistor is the latest known, approved, proven MOD to perform to keep the TCI safe, and to get the most performance out of the aftermarket coils.

Kurt, I would try just pulling the plug wires off of the coil towers and see if the valve cover will clear before taking the mounting brackets apart.

T.C.

[kboehringer]

A little better responsiveness.

.....are you using the Dynatek DC1-1, 3 Ohm coils?

YES, They are the DC1-1's.

Drove Ugly Duckling again today. I've heard/read others proclaim very vast improvement in performance from these. I won't claim any sort of VAST improvement but there is at least a slightly better throttle response it did not have before (when it SEEMED to be running properly). I haven't driven this bike in a while as the last few times I tried to get it out of the neighborhood it was clearly limping.

Kurt, I would try just pulling the plug wires off of the coil towers and see if the valve cover will clear before taking the mounting brackets apart.

Thanks TC. I will definitely TRY to get the cover off by removing the wires first. That's usually a pretty tight passage there for the valve cover and the new coils definitely intrude on the space where the OEM coils did not. You'll get to inspect it first hand at the Rally as I plan to drive this one.....

Sincerely,

[3Phase]

Kurt, your installation looks fantastic!

They're almost even with the Ballast mount tab and it looks like the coils only have to come up a little to let the valve cover come out. Is there enough room to flip the coils over and point the towers up?

A more drastic idea would be to drill new holes in the center inductor bars to use the OEM mounts instead of brackets but bye-bye warranty. It'd sure be a lot safer if you could pull the plug wires and find a way to finagle the cover out of the frame when you want to remove the valve cover.




T.C., I was actually thinking that, if I were to follow Dyna's recommendation, they're telling me to buy 1.5 Ohm coils for my XS1100 and ditch the ballast resistor.

If Dyna's willing to RMA their coils after telling their customers not to use a ballast then I'm good with it but they won't replace a cooked controller on my bike or anyone else's bike.

For my XS, I'd get the DC2-1, 1.5 Ohm coils and use the external ballast resistor the way it was designed. It's a solid, proven, system and I don't have a problem with ballast resistors or resistor wires.

The DC1-1, 3 Ohm coils are good for the XJ and the '81 XS ignitions without doing some wiring/controller mods but Yamaha gave up the voltage boost at startup that came from bypassing the ballast during engine cranking. The internal resistance does keep it out of the weather and eliminated a part along with a bunch of connector terminals on the Primary wire too so it's more reliable but there's no free lunch. Adding the resistance to the coils makes the engine have to work harder to fire up and also adds the heat that used to be dissipated by the external resistor sitting in the breezeway under the fuel tank.

Now, I have never heard or read about a rash of bikes left sitting along the road with baked 3 Ohm coils so they're generally pretty reliable but I wouldn't get rid of the ballast in a working system.

[TopCatGr58]

Scott,

Interesting points re. using/keeping the BR with the 1.5 ohm Dyna's....let's discuss it some more!

Thinking back to the quality and technology of the 78-80 era, the OEM coils were only about 15KV IIRC. Yes, Yamaha bypassed the BR for stronger starting spark energy with the FULL 12V's to them, but they also knew that they would heat up too much and burn up if run at 12v FULL TIME, and so that's why (I think) they utilized the BR to provide both the compliment of the 1.5 ohms for the TCI's 3.0 requirement, as well as reducing running voltage to help keep the coils cooler and still provide a "barely" adequate amount of spark energy to run the engine. I say barely, because we have all heard of the LOW RPM=Low voltage stumble/miss that folks report with OEM coils/BR combos.

Now...the newer HI POWERED Dynas are rated at 35KV, and are probably made with better quality materials, insulation, wire, etc. so that they don't run excessively hot enough to burn themselves up when run at 12V ALL of the time. And so they DO provide much stronger starting spark energy than the old OEM's even with the BR bypassed, so no actual loss of function there, I think they work much better for starting anyways, and the TCI still sees the required 3 ohms with the Dyna DC1-1's.

Yamaha ditched the BR and 1.5 ohm coils in 81, but didn't change the 3 ohm TCI requirement, I think they just developed better coils and no longer needed the BR combo.

Sorry, but I think folks are keeping unnecessary complexity by keeping the BR and using the 1.5 ohm Dynas. I looked all over their(Dynaonline.com) site, FAQ's, downloads, etc., but could not find a SPEC's sheet/table as to what voltage they require. But one of the installation guides for the coils mentioned the power line at 12+V. I know many decades ago some cars ran on 6 volts, but 12V seems to be the standard, and so I can't imagine that they intended their 1.5 ohm coils to be run/used on systems running less than 12+V, and the BR does drop the voltage to about 9 V, which would reduce the total KV output of the coils. Granted, even at reduced input voltage, the Dyna's probably still output much more KV than the OEM's in their best/newest state.

Have I changed your mind yet??

T.C.

[3Phase]

Scott,

[...]

Have I changed your mind yet??

T.C.

Mmmnope!


Ohms, it's not just a good idea, it's the Law! Copper is copper and it all indirectly came out of the Big Bang. In the thirty-some-odd-years since Yamaha invented motorcycles, Dynatek has not managed to create a single atom of new copper and there are only so many ways to wind that ancient Element into a useful coil with acceptable IR Power dissipation.

I'm pretty sure that Kurt exchanged like-for-like on his '81 Special with the 4R0 TCI. There's even a 4R0-30 sticker on the Low Tone horn next to the Ballast Resistor tab on the frame.

I couldn't find any inductance values instead of just DC resistance so Dyna's published specs are a little incomplete but I can guestimate what type of system they'd be designed to work with by the application recommendations. If you could get hold of an electrical engineer at Dynatec and not a sales engineer, you could ask her about the reasons for using a ballast and coil combination to store the energy for the ignition system, then explain when you would want to use a coil as a simple step-up transformer for the energy in the ignition with no ballast and, ideally, no storage. Without the ballast, the low-resistance coil will overheat if it's left energized and that's why Dyna emphasized that some of their coils can only be used with a system that can provide Dwell Control.

For using a coil as a traditional inductive storage medium, a lot of energy can be provided for starting an engine cold that's not necessary after it's warmed up or for running it flat-out with max power. Those unfortunate engines in places on the wrong side of the Continental Divide at the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the range that divides California from that desolate wasteland that we call, "Back East," need all the help they can get when it's winter.

Yamaha went to 3 Ohm ignition coils after they figured out that very few of their customers were actually going be riding their motorcycles when the temperature outside is cold enough to actually require the extra cold-start energy you can get from a ballast bypass ignition system. It was done by the same bevy of bean counters that changed the original XS1100 transmission output bearing from a double-row ball to single row ball and spacer, then began to delete all of the kicker components too.

Manufacturers gradually began to switch over to CDI for some systems and any extra resistance in the Primary supply or the transformer winding is bad, as is leaving any residual energy stored in the transformer because it'll just oppose the voltage change at the beginning of the next firing cycle.

So, nope, I'm not putting 3 Ohm coils on my '79 Special. When I fired it up and rode it after it had sat outside for years, and slowly dissolving, it almost jerked my arms out of their sockets -- no problem with the O.E.M. ballast or ignition coils!


Paceperformance.com | Key Ignition Concepts to Know | PDF 167K

[kboehringer]

Frankenbike (parts from many years)!

I'm pretty sure that Kurt exchanged like-for-like on his '81 Special with the 4R0 TCI. There's even a 4R0-30 sticker on the Low Tone horn next to the Ballast Resistor tab on the frame.

Well don't let the 4R0 horn fool ya.... I'm pretty sure none of the XS11's I own (4) came with a working horn (or any horn in some cases). I like the plastic back cover that came of the later models so I use them on all my bikes thank you Evil-Bay and the local bike junkyard. There's a pretty good variety of parts on my bikes from various; years, models, and even manufacturers

This bike (Ugly Duck) is an SG with it's OEM SG ignition system and wiring harness.

You guys are so far over my head on OHM's law and all that so I won't comment other than to say.... IT RUNS GREAT!

Sincerely,

[motoman]

Good you got it running great. BTW, ALL years of xs11's came from factory with dual metal cased horns. My Venturer(bought new by me) had dual metal cased/chrome front horns. So, with that, I'd be a little catious making statements here that are not necessarily true.

[3Phase]

Oops, I can't keep your raft of ducks in a row, Kurt! Now you're saying that horn isn't original and you have
mixed-year parts on your XS1100!



The horror... the horror.

[skids]

Good you got it running great. BTW, ALL years of xs11's came from factory with dual metal cased horns. My Venturer(bought new by me) had dual metal cased/chrome front horns. So, with that, I'd be a little catious making statements here that are not necessarily true.

Are you sure the 78's came with dual horns? Mine had a single and although I am not the first owner, there was no sign of a hook-up for a second horn.

[motoman]

Correct skids, believe the early models have one horn. The later yr. models, particularly the Specials had dual horns, IIRC. I do know for a fact the 81Venturer had two metal chrome faced horns from factory.