Motor Won't Start

[SouthernGrey64]

Well I am back again for advice. Haven't posted since August 2016. Thanks to all of you on this site who have helped me out, I have had a great Fall riding my XS1100SF— the bike has performed super! I took a three-day trip with a High School buddy to the Barber Motorsport Vintage Motorcycle Weekend (Oct 7, 8, & 9) in Leeds, Alabama. And, again in early November he and I along with two other friends took a four-day trip to Tapoco, NC (Deals Gap and Tail of the Dragon), rode the Blueridge Parkway from Cherokee to Asheville and back to Tapoco and then returned home to Marietta, GA via the Cherohala Skyway. On the two trips combined I put almost 1200 miles on the bike. We had a ball!

When I got home, I checked the spark plugs to find them extremely white. And, decided to raise the fuel level in the float bowls slightly to enrichen the overall mixture. Because of the upcoming Holiday Season, I put this off until the first week in 2017. I got everything readjusted (removed carbs, reset and checked fuel level, installed and sync’d carbs). The bike started immediately for syncing and was running great on the test ride just a little over a week ago. It has been in the basement ever since.

Today I wanted to go for a ride and it would not start. It cranked over but would not start. Only one cylinder would try to fire intermittently but the motor stopped when I came off the starter. Here’s what I have checked/discovered so far:
• exhaust headers were all cold (#3 slightly warm, intermittent firing)
• spark plugs were all wet
• there is a spark at each plug
• checked the battery voltage-13.66 volts
• checked all connectors for tightness
• checked STOP/RUN/STOP switch-OK
• checked the Pickup coils resistance at small TCI connector–OK within specs
• checked the coil primary and secondary resistances-OK within specs
• checked resistance of the Ballast Resistor-OK within specs
• checked the voltages at large TCI connector-all OK
• checked compression-all OK within specs

I just know its something simple that am overlooking because it was running so good last week. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Linwood

[MaximPhil]

Hi SouthernGrey64,
While electrickery is still magic to me
I suspect you may have a voltage drop when attempting to start.
TCI need at least 10.5 volts while cranking to fire the coils.
Hook up a volt meter/ multi meter to the battery terminals and see what you get when you hit the start button.
Checking the fluid level in the battery is a good idea after sitting for a while and a trickle charge, over night, after a period of not running.
The XS asks a lot of a relatively small battery at start up and then delivers a mediocre charge when running so not exactly a marriage made in heaven

Phil

[skids]

Is the airbox wet with fuel?

[SouthernGrey64]

Motor Won't Start

Phil and Skids thank you both for your quick replies.

Phil-That's a good thought about the starting voltage drop. I will check it and advise. I keep the sealed battery on a Battery Tender trickle charger when the bike is parked for more than a day.

Skids-The air box is completely dry. No stuck float valves.

[motoman]

Saw in your initial post the batt. voltage was 13.66v. One thing I DIDN"T see was batt. voltage with key-on. Whatever that voltage is then at the battery, needs to be the same at coil plug-ins with key-on. If there's a drop in voltage at those plug-ins, I first suspect RUN/STOP switch contacts are not clean. Secondly, suspect cruddy internal contacts of ignition switch. Both of which complete the running circuit.

[soccer4m]

just a thought

Howdy,,,,,from the details so far, I would try a different battery or try jumping it off a car. Not sure how old your battery is, but if older it could be it isnt putting out the needed amperage. These bikes need to turn over fast, if it slows even a little with trying to start, from low amps,voltage they just do not fire up. Again, just a thought as I have had sealed batteries just up and die quick, the older wet fill batteries seem to die slower.....anyway, try a jump and crank it over fast. Maybe a shot of instant start in the inlet also to help it fire up....good luck, Mike in SUn DIego

[donebysunday]

Bikes in a warm basement, right ?
You just raised the fuel level in the float bowls to richen it up, right ?
If you normally use the choke to start that may be the wrong thing to do since making it richer.
You have always kept it in the basement when it was to sit for extended time, yes ?
You never had this problem before ?
If you have used the starter long enough to wear down the battery cranking amps this may have diminished the voltage, check the battery voltage.

Well I am back again for advice. Haven't posted since August 2016. Thanks to all of you on this site who have helped me out, I have had a great Fall riding my XS1100SF— the bike has performed super! I took a three-day trip with a High School buddy to the Barber Motorsport Vintage Motorcycle Weekend (Oct 7, 8, & 9) in Leeds, Alabama. And, again in early November he and I along with two other friends took a four-day trip to Tapoco, NC (Deals Gap and Tail of the Dragon), rode the Blueridge Parkway from Cherokee to Asheville and back to Tapoco and then returned home to Marietta, GA via the Cherohala Skyway. On the two trips combined I put almost 1200 miles on the bike. We had a ball!

When I got home, I checked the spark plugs to find them extremely white. And, decided to raise the fuel level in the float bowls slightly to enrichen the overall mixture. Because of the upcoming Holiday Season, I put this off until the first week in 2017. I got everything readjusted (removed carbs, reset and checked fuel level, installed and sync’d carbs). The bike started immediately for syncing and was running great on the test ride just a little over a week ago. It has been in the basement ever since.

Today I wanted to go for a ride and it would not start. It cranked over but would not start. Only one cylinder would try to fire intermittently but the motor stopped when I came off the starter. Here’s what I have checked/discovered so far:
• exhaust headers were all cold (#3 slightly warm, intermittent firing)
• spark plugs were all wet
• there is a spark at each plug
• checked the battery voltage-13.66 volts
• checked all connectors for tightness
• checked STOP/RUN/STOP switch-OK
• checked the Pickup coils resistance at small TCI connector–OK within specs
• checked the coil primary and secondary resistances-OK within specs
• checked resistance of the Ballast Resistor-OK within specs
• checked the voltages at large TCI connector-all OK
• checked compression-all OK within specs

I just know its something simple that am overlooking because it was running so good last week. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Linwood

[SouthernGrey64]

Motor Won't Start

Thanks motoman, soccer4m, & donebysunday for your advise.

motoman-Today, I plan on checking out the battery voltage with the ignition switch on and compare it to the voltage on the positive side of the coils as you have suggested. Then go from there. I used the starter quite a bit yesterday so I am sure the battery got weaker the more I used it. The battery has been on the trickle charger all night long.

soccer4m-If it turns out that the battery is weak, I will jump it with a car battery to see if that will work. The battery is less than a year old.

donebysunday- You are correct in all of your questions. I tried with and without the choke yesterday and it didn't seem to make a difference. I will check the battery voltage today with the ignition switch on and also while cranking.

Thanks again,
Linwood

[donebysunday]

Plugs

Did you check the plugs, wet, dry, black and sooty, still white, wet or dry ?
If you have an iffy spark it won't take much to push it over the edge.
If it got a little much fuel could have fouled the plugs.
New plugs never hurt, save the old ones.
Once fully charged check the plug/s spark.
Might/maybe a good time to go through the system and make sure you have good spark at the plugs.
My little brother (6" taller than I and his wife keeps him looking like superman, she is an aerobics instructor) is 3rd in command at NAPA he lives near you.

Thanks motoman, soccer4m, & donebysunday for your advise.

motoman-Today, I plan on checking out the battery voltage with the ignition switch on and compare it to the voltage on the positive side of the coils as you have suggested. Then go from there. I used the starter quite a bit yesterday so I am sure the battery got weaker the more I used it. The battery has been on the trickle charger all night long.

soccer4m-If it turns out that the battery is weak, I will jump it with a car battery to see if that will work. The battery is less than a year old.

donebysunday- You are correct in all of your questions. I tried with and without the choke yesterday and it didn't seem to make a difference. I will check the battery voltage today with the ignition switch on and also while cranking.

Thanks again,
Linwood

[skids]

I would recommend that if you jumper it off of a car battery, do it with the car not running to help prevent overvoltage. Also, when I do it, I remove the right side cover and roll back the rubber cover on the electrical lug for the positive. You can use the frame (like the lock brace, etc) for the negative. Make sure it is not in gear in case you make the solenoid activate the starter!

[motoman]

I would recommend that if you jumper it off of a car battery, do it with the car not running to help prevent overvoltage. Also, when I do it, I remove the right side cover and roll back the rubber cover on the electrical lug for the positive. You can use the frame (like the lock brace, etc) for the negative. Make sure it is not in gear in case you make the solenoid activate the starter!

No worries skids, isn't gonna happen anyways. 12v is 12v and amps. drawn is only what is needed for starting load.t Just thought I'd put a stop to that vicious rumor before it ever gets started(again).

[3Phase]

Puff

No worries skids, isn't gonna happen anyways. 12v is 12v and amps. drawn is only what is needed for starting load.t Just thought I'd put a stop to that vicious rumor before it ever gets started(again).

Well, it's semi-sort-of-kind'a safe if everything is in good condition, then it'll only draw what it needs.

If there's an electrical fault or the battery itself has a bad cell, hooking up a bigger battery with several hundreds of instantaneous amps available can turn a bad starter motor into that famous magic dragon or the smaller battery into an AER (Acid Emitting Resistor).

Be careful.

[SouthernGrey64]

Motor Won't Start

Sorry for taking so long to reply. Well, I was not able to work on the bike Saturday as much as I wanted (busy weekend got in the way). Did get to clean the OFF/RUN/OFF switch though. I was able to let the battery fully charge and took some voltages last night (Sunday). I will try to start it again this afternoon and get the crank voltage.

With the charger removed:

• Battery Voltage, IGN OFF=13.57 volts
• Battery Voltage, IGN ON=12.81 Volts (Slowly settled to this Voltage)
• Voltage at positive side of coils, IGN ON=12.29
• Calculated Difference= 0.52 Volts (12.81-12.29) Volts
• Measured Difference=0.46 volts

Is a half volt difference significant?

donebysunday-Where does you brother live? Does he ride?
In checking the plugs after it wouldn't start, I found them to be wet and still very white, same color as they were after my Blueridge trip. The bike has only run for a short trip after resetting the fuel level and syncing the carbs. Started right up for the carb sync. Ran well then. It just all of a sudden decided to not start Friday. I put in new plugs last night.

skids, motoman, & 3Phase- If I can't start it with the bike battery, I will try using the marine battery that I pulled out of the boat when I winterized it (this battery has been on an trickle charger). I will be careful; I don't want a AER either.

Will advise this afternoon's results
Again, thanks to all for your help,
Linwood

[3Phase]

Yes, the half volt drop in the ignition is fine, most of it should be across the Ballast Resistor. You can put the volt meter across each component to find out exactly how much is dropped.


Jumping any battery with a larger battery is not safe, don't do it. Remove the smaller battery from the circuit and just use the larger battery. After you find and fix the problem(s), reconnect the smaller battery.

There are a lot more amps available to cause mischief between batteries than most battery chargers can supply on their finest fast/start charge settings. If you insist then don't leave the two jumpered for any longer than absolutely necessary: jumper, start, disconnect.

Don't stare at the batteries.

[SouthernGrey64]

Motor Won't Start

Thanks 3Phase for the warning!
If I need to use the marine battery, I will remove the bike battery completely out of the circuit and connect the jumper cables directly to the bike battery lead and a ground. This should be a safe condition.
I am heading out now to see if it will start with the new spark plugs installed.
Thanks again,
Linwood