Dielectric grease revisited

[jetmechmarty]

We had a bike break down at XS East. The alternator wouldn't charge. The connector behind the fuse block had recently been replaced. That connector was melted again. It had been packed full of dielectric grease. We cleaned up the mess and removed the damaged connector. We connected and individually wrapped the wires. All done in a parking lot, so we could get on down the road.

I wouldn't use it at all myself. I really don't think anybody should be packing connectors with it. It caused a breakdown at the rally. Those of you who recommend this stuff, please rethink it. A little smear here and there is one thing, but this is what it leads to. I don't know how you get that stuff off. On the side of the road, it was resistant to carburetor cleaner and WD40.

Anyway, this breakdown was caused by dielectric grease. Think about that before you pack your connectors with it.

[madmax-im]

People have the application wrong...you're supposed to use the stuff on the outside of the connectors to keep water out...not packed into the connectors where it acts as an insulator where you dont want it to be...
There aint a speck of it on my bike...

[jetmechmarty]

People have the application wrong...you're supposed to use the stuff on the outside of the connectors to keep water out...not packed into the connectors where it acts as an insulator where you dont want it to be...
There aint a speck of it on my bike...

I'll argue that it's best left away from the bike or reserved for the spark plug boot. I heartily agree with your last line, madmax.

[skids]

I have read-up a lot on the subject. Dielectric grease does no help by increasing continuity. It is supposed to insulate an already-good connection. I am concerned about "packing" the whole thing, based on information just received, that it is resistant to carb cleaner. BTW carb cleaner can reduce plastic parts to goo (and probably coat the contacts making the conductivity drop). I have used the dielectric grease before with good success except that it attracts dirt. I use a light coat and just hope that it insulates everything from corrosion. I do have one xs11 where I did away with the OEM clip and used individual connectors. I don't plan on changing it because it works fine and if one of the connectors goes bad, I will deal with it. It is like all the eggs in one basket with the OEM connector.

[DeanR]

Marty, can I post this over on St-Owners?

[motoman]

Marty, can I post this over on St-Owners?

Public info. Dean.....need no permission. and yea, there's been several recent instances where use of this has been OVERSTATED on there.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Marty,

Many years ago when Randy/Davinci hosted an XSEast I think it was in NY but can't recall exactly....anyways, he GAVE everyone a tube of some copper impregnated CONDUCTIVE grease that he highly recommended for all of the LARGE SINGLE contact type connectors on the bike. I've been using it exclusively on mine....no dielectric grease. It IS conductive....and so it's not recommended for multi-pronged plug connectors due to the chance of shorting across the prongs, but for battery,solenoid, starter, and other large connectors with little to no chance of cross contamination of a junction to another circuit, it can be applied to both enhance and protect the connection.

http://alternatorparts.com/copper.html

The site is mostly an alternator and parts site, the stuff isn't even listed on their home page, but it still comes up in a google search when you use the right words! They also don't show how much they charge for it.

But along the same lines, using copper infused conductive grease or anti-seize compound would probably be just as good and both protective and conductive.

T.C.

PS, I just sent an inquiring email to them regarding if it's still available, the current cost, if there is a minimum quantity order, etc.!

[jetmechmarty]

Hey Marty,

Many years ago when Randy/Davinci hosted an XSEast I think it was in NY but can't recall exactly....anyways, he GAVE everyone a tube of some copper impregnated CONDUCTIVE grease

So, that's where I got that stuff! You're right, it will short a connector. It's great where used as you noted. I use it that way, too.

I have ridden my XS11 and my XS650 in pouring rain. I have ridden them in all day rain with no dielectric grease on the connectors. They still run fine in the rain. If you're looking to prevent corrosion on the contacts, dielectric grease isn't the answer.

[CaptonZap]

Anyway, this breakdown was caused by dielectric grease. Think about that before you pack your connectors with it.

And I disagree. This breakdown was caused by a resistive connection. If you are an aviation electrician, you should know that. People who tout slip connectors should be given a three hour course on the physics involved in those connections, and the things to enhance the conductive capacity and longevity of the connection. To blame dielectric grease is the same as blaming alcohol in gas used in grossly mis jetted carbs for the lack of proper performance of the engine.
Or saying the reason the sun comes up is because the rooster crows.

But as they say, to each his own.

CZ

[motoman]

Here a month ago, i was trying ot locate some De-Oxit(however its advertized logo is spelled) locally. At a commercial electrics supplier, they were familiar with it, but didn't carry that specificly. They did show me a small squeeze tube of De-Oxit brand stuff that, for lack of better terminology, tinned the two metals brass or aluminum so the two became one in a sense when female/male ends plug together. Had both the higher voltage type and lower up to 12v. Didn't purchase any as of yet, and not being in the electrical contractor business(AC current hook-ups and flow just don't register in my 12v DC brain correctly) and avoid trying to put my brain in that mode, thought it was interesting stuff.
Any of you electrical gurus or electrical contractors out there that can expand on this as to some more specifics on this De-Oxit product specificly? I say 'specificly' cause they initially showed me a can the size of a large can of anti-sieze with the applicator screw on lid and brush of some other brand for extremely high voltage applications.

[DeanR]

Anyway, this breakdown was caused by dielectric grease.

Could you elaborate on this Marty? Like CaptonZap, many ST folks are also disagreeing.

[jetmechmarty]

Yes. CZ is right. There is a weak connection at the terminal. It's not the greatest design, and opening and closing it all this time weakens the mechanical connection. Dielectric grease is an insulator. Putting that in the equation makes it worse. I had an engineer explain to me how it outgases as it decomposes or gets near any spark and becomes silicon dioxide. That loose connection may be doing some sparking. How do you remove silicon dioxide?

Why use this stuff at all? What is the benefit? I say there is none. I concede that it's a good o'ring lube and I expect fine for spark plug boots.

I can't say it better than this:

Using Dielectric Grease on connectors.

A lot of people use dielectric grease on connectors. Some people mistakenly believe that dielectric grease is a conductor. In fact, it is just the opposite. It is an insulator, and a good one. That is the basic definition of dielectric, an insulator. Dielectric grease is typically made of silicone grease.

As an insulator, dielectric grease is good for use on spark plug boots. This was one of the original applications on vehicles when the high energy ignition systems came out. It can help insulate the connector, and in particular on a motorcycle where it can get wet, it waterproofs the spark plug boot. And because it is silicone, it is fairly stable at high temperatures and won’t affect the rubber and plastics.

So why would you put an insulator on a connector? The idea is that you use a thin layer. When you push the connector together, the grease is pushed out of the way enough to get a connection, and the surrounding grease then keeps out water and oxygen. The connector will be protected from the environment, and less likely to corrode. Plus the silicone is safe for the plastics and PVC insulation.

That sounds good, so far.

So why not smear it on everything? Well, there are a number of reasons.

1) Silicone grease outgases constantly. If the silicone gas gets near a connector or a contact such as a relay, and there is any arcing, the spark at the contact can create silicon dioxide. Some companies even suggest that the silicone gas from dielectric grease can travel many feet through the insulation on a wire and damage a contact on the other end. Omron states that even their sealed switches can be damaged by nearby silicone grease out gassing. Reference below for more info.

2) It is an insulator. It can prevent contacts from touching. If you must use it, use a very thin layer.

3) If you have a corroded connection, silicone grease will not help. In fact, it can only make a connection worse. It can never improve anything. Dielectric grease will never make a poor connection better.

4) It attracts dust and dirt and due to the out gassing, it hardens over time. This can only make a connection worse.

This means that if you smear a lot of silicone grease on connectors, you may see nearby relays, switches or points fail later on. And since the silicone grease does nothing at all to improve the connection, and in fact may insulate the contacts in the connector increasing the resistance, the connector may still fail.

So what do you do? Look for a contact enhancer/lube. While most contact cleaners are simple solvents that just wash the connector off. There are contact enhancers that deoxidize the contact surface and actually work to lower the contact resistance (make a better connection). Most contact enhancers leave a lubricant behind that protects the metal and continue to deoxidize the metal and improve the connection. They can work to lower the resistance and actually make a BETTER contact as time goes by. The best you can hope for from dielectric grease is that it seals it enough to not get much worse. I have used Caig Deoxit on my bikes for a few years now. I first found out about this on my job when I had to correct an issue in a scale load cell connector system that could not tolerate even 5 thousandths of an ohm of resistance drift. We had a connector in the field that had been improperly plated and was starting to drift, mostly in warm humid areas like Florida. Our testing showed that the Caig Deoxit could be a good long term fix. We ended up using the Deoxit to stabilize the bad units until we could get corrected wiring harnesses built with the correct connectors. We also put a layer of Deoxit on the new parts to protect and keep them clean over their lifetime. This totally solved the resistance drift issue that we had. Our information on this product showed that the contact would actually get better for a period of over 1 year. The resistance would then begin to deteriorate, but at a much slower rate that a connector without the Deoxit.

I still use a small amount of silicone grease on my spark plug caps. It helps to waterproof them and makes it easier to pull the cap off. (have you pulled a plug cap on a Stelvio yet?) But I use it in very small amounts and never near a relay or switch.

Useful links:

1) http://www.ia.omron.com/product/caut...rrect_use.html

2) http://machinedesign.com/article/lub...-switches-1025

3) http://www.echeloninc.com/contactlubrication.htm



Wayne Orwig

[3Phase]

Sheesh, Brant, you could at least narrow it down a skosh! There are so many brands of conductive greases with different compounds and applications from the common Permatex anti-seize to specialty greases that it's almost impossible to guess what was in the tub/tube that guy had at the counter.


Small tube:-
Gardner Bender Ox-Gard Anti-Oxidant Compound

Same small tube at Lowe's.com:-
Shop Lowe's: Gardner Bender 1oz tube Ox-Gard Anti-Oxidant Compound


Sanchem NO-OX-ID



Big tubes and tubs:-
2 Cartridge Case ~ $99
48 Pound (6 Gallon) Container ~ $1,974
Superior-Industries Electric Contact Grease ECG-66


There are more ... a lot more!

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[jetmechmarty]

There are more ... a lot more!

.

Do we really need this stuff? I have not tried it, but a can of Deoxit looks to be the simple solution to a problem that may or may not exist. Yes, dirty/poor connections will stop the bike. Every hardware and auto parts store has some kind of contact cleaner. They work. I had to fix my own with it a couple years ago on the side of the road. I'm glad I wasn't trying to remove dielectric grease.

[3Phase]

Do we really need this stuff?

Nope, Yamaha's not exactly an inexperienced neophyte so the terminals are already plated. Just keep them clean and mostly-dry and you won't have to worry about corroded terminals unless they're, like, over thirty years old or already scratched, burned, or corroded.

If you live near water, especially salt water, keep the bike indoors or at least out of the fog.

If you did something dumb like use acid or a strong alkaline to clean the corrosion off the terminals and almost immediately stripped the plating along with the dirt, yeah, they'll have to be greased or replaced unless you find some kind of inner joy by cleaning connectors.

If you ride during the winter then you're doomed and it doesn't matter what kind of conductive grease you prefer but you should use it wherever you can without creating a short circuit so that someone else can use the harness.

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