It just wont turn over, WHY!!!!

[OMCC]

So as I have been working through the issues with the bike I have come up with a real head scratcher.

when I first got the bike I took off the air box (I was considering using pod filters but decided against it) and I got the bike to fire however the idle was rough and the previous owner told me it needed so carb work.

So I took the carb out and open two of the four both were pristine compared to the carbs in the carb cleaning videos I had watched so I put it back together eyeball synced the carbs and put it back on the bike with the airbox.

Nothing, The engine cranks but never catches hold. I toyed with the idle that did nothing so I figured it was the airbox so I took the bottom off as recommended in other threads.

still nothing

So I took the airbox off completely, still nothing.

I can't figure out why all of a sudden this thing wont fire.

So I milled about fixed a couple of things sticky throttle malfunctioning starter button. hoping maybe that was part of the issue. still nothing.

so what could it be guys the sparkplugs are pretty new and on inspection of two of them they look alright. a little sooty from running the rich mixture without the airbox. I am going to test them later (advice would be helpful I've never tested plugs before usually just got new ones if I had an issue starting my lawnmower.)

But to the original point what the heck do you think it could be. I'm so close to having this thing road ready that it's killing me not having it at least idle.


Thanks again for all your help, (especially the guys that posted the sticky throttle and starter button fixes.)

[BA80]

Just because the inside of the float bowls are clean it doesn't mean that all the tiny passages and orifices in jets and such are. If it sat any time at all with any fuel in it at all those tiny holes are plugged up.

There are good threads on carb cleaning HERE and TC just posted a thread on the inner workings of the carbs HERE.

Take a look.

An engine needs just 4 things to run, air, fuel, compression , and spark. If one of those is missing, or not happening when or how it should the engine won't run.

[natemoen]

Agree with BA80. Just opening the float bowl really tells you nothing (especially if you only look at 2 of the 4). The carbs most likely need a completely disassembled and cleaned.

Do you have fuel flowing from the tank to the carbs?

[motoman]

Got a whole array of things going on!
First, if your holding that throttle open at all, it won't start....(for future referance).
Next, you need fuel, air and spark.....your missin' at the least one of those
For safety alone, have that air box on COMPLETE......a backfire could more than just the bike. Here on this site, a member almost lost his home.......another literally melted his Midnite Special.......nothin' to take light heartedly.
My other suggestion since not knowing your skill sets would be bypass the tip over switch located on frame above coils, under the tank.
Another initial suspect would be the ballest resistor.
Their IS several other things going on your not yet aware of.....in other words, this'll give you a good start.....not pullin' any punches, its not gonna magicly run, least not anywhere correctly overbite.
Just curious, did you happen to get this bike from someone who gave up.on it?......is it a conglomeration of different model yrs.......motor, ect?
Post what all you got from frame and motor serial numbers.......that would be a major help in itself .

[vedgar]

Term " Turn Over " generally

When you say the bike won't turn over , it is generally accepted to mean the bike or car will not crank. What you mean is the bike will turn over but not start. I am with MOTOMAN, lets get down to basics. Answer these questions
1st. Pull a plug, leave it attached to the plug wire and TURN OVER THE ENGINE. Do you have spark ? If yes, reinstall the spark plug and wire and spray a little starting fluid into the air intake passage under the seat while cranking the engine and see if it will fire. This will verify that the bike will at least start and somewhat run. I will chime back in when you have completed these two steps and have answers. Gotta walk before you can run.
Vance

[TopCatGr58]

Hey OMCC,

Lots of good advice already. I would add that you need to have the removed sparkplug laying against the head/engine....so that it can ground to the engine to complete the spark path....these are dual tower coils, the spark goes from coil, thru spark plug, thru engine/metal and then back UP thru the other plug. IF the plug isn't making contact with the engine, then it can't complete the circuit and even though you may have a good coil, it will NOT spark making you think you have a bad coil or such!

Secondly, what condition is your battery in? Even if it's NEW, if the bike's not been running and you've been doing all of this cranking....then the battery can weaken to the point that it can still rotate the starter motor/engine but not have enough "juice" to fully power the ignition circuit, and so NO SPARK! Also, have you replaced the OEM fuseblock with ATCO style solid fuses?? If not, have you checked the ignition fuse and the clips to make sure they are good...not just LOOK GOOD!

Once you get the bike started, just running the bike at idle will DISCHARGE the battery, the charging system doesn't kick in until around 2500 rpm or more!!! Keep your battery on a charger to keep it topped off!

Also....just a note regarding the ballast resistor. During starting mode the B.R. is bypassed by the TCI sending full 12 volts to the coils for easier starting, and even if the B.R. is damaged, the bike will still try to start and fire, but once it almost gets started, it will NOT keep running because the TCi then routes the power THRU the B.R. and so THEN it will not run. So a bad B.R. won't prevent the bike from getting some starting fire, will sound like it's trying to catch and fire, just won't keep running. Others have experienced this phenomena by HOLDING DOWN the starter button which keeps the TCI routing the power AROUND the B.R., so the bike will keep running until they let off of the starter button, then it dies because of a bad B.R..

T.C.

[BA80]

Working on the fact that it was running, albeit badly, and then he messed with the carbs and now it won't even start.

Logic?

[TopCatGr58]

Working on the fact that it was running, albeit badly, and then he messed with the carbs and now it won't even start.

Logic?

He took the bowls off, peeked, and put the bowls back on. He stated he'd been IDLING the bike, but not necessarily running/riding it so it wasn't being run over 2500 rpm=charging rpm. Then repeated attempts at starting, cranking further draining the battery....possibly with clogged starter jets, bike wouldn't start and then weakened battery not providing power for ignition, so no start.

Computes for me!

T.C.

hey OMCC. Try a JUMPER BATTERY and see what happens.

[OMCC]

Updates

Alright I did a bunch of work on it this weekend here are my updates and a video of what's going on now with a few pictures that were requested. Also note the new knocking that started when the bikes about to stall.

http://youtu.be/0fMdn7jFov4

Just because the inside of the float bowls are clean it doesn't mean that all the tiny passages and orifices in jets and such are. If it sat any time at all with any fuel in it at all those tiny holes are plugged up.

Understood, I cleaned the carbs thoroughly following a tutorial posted here.

Do you have fuel flowing from the tank to the carbs?

Yes

if your holding that throttle open at all, it won't start....(for future referance).

Good to know I have been trying to figure about if edging it while starting helps or hurts. I've had a number of old offroad vehicles with a low idle that needed to be edged

For safety alone, have that air box on COMPLETE......a backfire could more than just the bike. Here on this site, a member almost lost his home.......another literally melted his Midnite Special.......nothin' to take light heartedly.

Holy cow I did not know it would be that severe thank you so much. Airbox is now back on and complete

My other suggestion since not knowing your skill sets would be bypass the tip over switch located on frame above coils, under the tank. Another initial suspect would be the ballast resistor.
Their IS several other things going on your not yet aware of.....in other words, this'll give you a good start.....not pullin' any punches, its not gonna magicly run, least not anywhere correctly overbite.

I am very new to this, consider it somewhat of a quarter life crisis. I will look into the ballast resistor and bypassing the tip over switch. Does you have photos of what they look like on the bike.

Just curious, did you happen to get this bike from someone who gave up.on it?......is it a conglomeration of different model yrs.......motor, ect?
Post what all you got from frame and motor serial numbers.......that would be a major help in itself .

Yes that is exactly the case it is a bit of a rat. Harley front fender as the rear fender, Harley horn, DIY seat, harley handlebars awful blue flame grips that I simultaneously love and hate. It might look trashy to purists but it's a mean looking bike. The vin on the motor matches the frame so I'm pretty sure that most of the bike is original although he did remove most traces of the yamaha brand. This link has an album of photos with serial numbers and what not.

When you say the bike won't turn over , it is generally accepted to mean the bike or car will not crank. What you mean is the bike will turn over but not start.

Thats interesting I have limited experience discussing this stuff outside of my family and close friends and crank and turnover have never been used synonymously. However you want to word it yes you are correct.

1st. Pull a plug, leave it attached to the plug wire and TURN OVER THE ENGINE. Do you have spark ? If yes, reinstall the spark plug and wire and spray a little starting fluid into the air intake passage under the seat while cranking the engine and see if it will fire. .

I have bright blue sparks on all plugs

What condition is your battery in? Even if it's NEW, if the bike's not been running and you've been doing all of this cranking....then the battery can weaken to the point that it can still rotate the starter motor/engine but not have enough "juice" to fully power the ignition circuit, and so NO SPARK!

The batterys not new but it's strong enough to start and idle the bike. I also have a charger on it to make sure it never gets to low.

Also, have you replaced the OEM fuseblock with ATCO style solid fuses?? If not, have you checked the ignition fuse and the clips to make sure they are good...not just LOOK GOOD!

I haven't replaced the OEM fusebox I will look into how to do that. As I've posted before, electrical is not my strong suit so I may need to take it into a shop to have it done. The fuses themselves are all in very good shape non blown that I saw. There a picture of them near the end of the video.

Once you get the bike started, just running the bike at idle will DISCHARGE the battery, the charging system doesn't kick in until around 2500 rpm or more!!! Keep your battery on a charger to keep it topped off!

Does this mean if the battery dies while idling the bike will shut off?

During starting mode the B.R. is bypassed by the TCI sending full 12 volts to the coils for easier starting, and even if the B.R. is damaged, the bike will still try to start and fire, but once it almost gets started, it will NOT keep running because the TCi then routes the power THRU the B.R. and so THEN it will not run. So a bad B.R. won't prevent the bike from getting some starting fire, will sound like it's trying to catch and fire, just won't keep running. Others have experienced this phenomena by HOLDING DOWN the starter button which keeps the TCI routing the power AROUND the B.R., so the bike will keep running until they let off of the starter button, then it dies because of a bad B.R..

T.C.

This is exactly what is happening it seems. After cleaning the crabs and putting everything back together. I can get it to start with starter fluid but it dies soon after. Can you explain how to fix this or link me to a tutorial? That being said without starter fluid I can't even get it to start, I can rev it though before it quits so I'm sure the carbs are getting fuel.

Thanks everyone let me know if I'm forgetting anything

[BillyRok]

Looking at your very first post you said ---

when I first got the bike I took off the air box (I was considering using pod filters but decided against it) and I got the bike to fire however the idle was rough and the previous owner told me it needed so carb work.

In the very beginning, did it fire up and run using the choke/enricher or did it only fire up and run if you used starter fluid like you did in the video? I'm wondering if it has ever run for you because gas was getting through the carbs or whether it was always dependent on starting fluid to get it to run.

[OMCC]

Looking at your very first post you said ---

In the very beginning, did it fire up and run using the choke/enricher or did it only fire up and run if you used starter fluid like you did in the video? I'm wondering if it has ever run for you because gas was getting through the carbs or whether it was always dependent on starting fluid to get it to run.

I had to use the choke but didn't have to use starter fluid. Gas is definitely getting to the carbs.

[vedgar]

Knock when sputtering !

I would not worry about the noises the bike makes when coming to a dead stop. Lets get it running and then diagnose. I hear CARB PROBLEMS !!!!! Anyone agree ?

[BA80]

Tripple clean.....

[OMCC]

Tripple clean.....

Triple clean

[TopCatGr58]

Hey again,

Was that a question, or just correcting his typo!?

You did the carb cleaning x 1 now. You may not know it, but I thought the carb 101 thread/tip explained about the little Starter Jet down in the float bowl, and that it needs to be clean and flowing for the bike's enrichener to work. Anyways, we have found that most folks would do a cursory cleaning, not work, then perform a second slightly more involved cleaning, still not clean enough, and then have to do a 3rd tear down, and more thorough cleaning/soaking and brushing of parts and spritzing of the passages before they finally get the carbs cleaned enough to work right=Triple clean!

And when you crack the throttle, you actually DROP the vacuum that's being created and so it has less of a pull affect to draw the fuel up from the bowl..that's why folks should NOT twist the throttle when trying to start their bike cold...just use the enrichener!

T.C.