Something snapped! A diagnosis.

[mesmeridicus]

Pulled the middle gear cover off, drained oil. Couldn't see anything wrong with it, but I really don't know what to look for. Turned fine, no metal chips or anything that I could see.

Anyway, here are the two videos.

Bike on centerstand:

http://youtu.be/xMssPfnXme0

Bike on ground:

http://youtu.be/NEsl1lHgMXo

As I noted earlier, the rear wheel will spin when on centerstand. You will see in the second video, however, that there is not enough power to move the bike.

I directed my brother to attempt to capture the (now duller) sound coming from the bike, which is why most of both videos is a close shot of the middle drive/transmission.

Hope this can help.

[mesmeridicus]

Obviously the videos would be a big help, however just reading through this thread it seems that you are still going to have to do some wrenching. If I were in your shoes I would accept the Lorax's offer and help with his and yours. Two sets of hands and eyes are much better then one and besides having two people will aid in getting the bikes stripped and flipped. I would also print out the tech from this site as large as I could make it with the pictorial so that it could be easily referenced.

Barring that you at minimum need to remove the back wheel and drive train up to the middle gear. That would be a good start and would give you an opportunity to examine all your u joints and final drive housing for damage. If none exist there then you down to the middle drive unit and transmission. The middle drive unit could then be inspected for damage by removing the side cover and you would already be seeing the other side by removing the drive shaft assembly. For a bike of this age you need to do all of that anyway and clean and grease everything with fresh grease. You don't need a lot of mechanical no how to do these tasks. The transmission is another story but with the help of this site and Lorax you should be able to accomplish that as well. As has been said .... if you are going to own and ride these old machines you can not be afraid to dig in and learn. I understand your apprehension, however at worst you don't get it fixed .... so what have you lost... your not riding now anyway.

By the way not trying to be nosy or get into your business but did you buy that bike as configured as a café or have you done some work on it? How much do you now have invested in it and is it worth it to you to invest more money or time? From my perspective my time has less impact on my wallet.

I sent a message to Lorax, I'm going to take whatever help I can get.

Regarding the cafe modifications: no, I purchased it stock. I put new handlebars, mirrors, license plate/brake light bracket on it. About a week ago, actually, I had finally managed to get that seat on. I had tried to make my own, failed; went to a custom shop, guy said he'd make one then blew me off for two months; finally, purchased that seat off Tuffside and had some bars welded on to mount it.

I really like this bike and have been working on it in my small, slow way for a year and a half now. I'll get her running one way or another.

[BA80]

My point exactly, BA 80, it's human nature to always think the worst. At this point I would diconnect the drive shaft from the middle drive and roll through the gears again. If it's still stddering then the middle drive is the problem. If it isn't, then the u joint drive shaft is the culpret.

Yeah Mack, that's why I suggested that he look at the oil in the middle drive.

That's where he thinks the noise is coming from anyway.

[mack]

Yep

My point exactly, BA 80, it's human nature to always think the worst. At this point I would diconnect the drive shaft from the middle drive and roll through the gears again. If it's still stddering then the middle drive is the problem. If it isn't, then the u joint drive shaft is the culpret.

[BA80]

Stuttering feel is in all gears.

Putting it up on the centerstand while running it and cycling the gears was a great, simple idea that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks. I video-recorded the process you suggested and I'll post it as soon as I can.

Have you drained the oil from the middle drive and looked at it yet? If it's in ALL gears that would narrow it down the main drive chain (highly unlikely) the middle drive (where you say the noise is coming from) the drive shaft, or the final drive.

All the gears won't go bad at once.

[cajun31]

Mes

Obviously the videos would be a big help, however just reading through this thread it seems that you are still going to have to do some wrenching. If I were in your shoes I would accept the Lorax's offer and help with his and yours. Two sets of hands and eyes are much better then one and besides having two people will aid in getting the bikes stripped and flipped. I would also print out the tech from this site as large as I could make it with the pictorial so that it could be easily referenced.

Barring that you at minimum need to remove the back wheel and drive train up to the middle gear. That would be a good start and would give you an opportunity to examine all your u joints and final drive housing for damage. If none exist there then you down to the middle drive unit and transmission. The middle drive unit could then be inspected for damage by removing the side cover and you would already be seeing the other side by removing the drive shaft assembly. For a bike of this age you need to do all of that anyway and clean and grease everything with fresh grease. You don't need a lot of mechanical no how to do these tasks. The transmission is another story but with the help of this site and Lorax you should be able to accomplish that as well. As has been said .... if you are going to own and ride these old machines you can not be afraid to dig in and learn. I understand your apprehension, however at worst you don't get it fixed .... so what have you lost... your not riding now anyway.

By the way not trying to be nosy or get into your business but did you buy that bike as configured as a café or have you done some work on it? How much do you now have invested in it and is it worth it to you to invest more money or time? From my perspective my time has less impact on my wallet.

[mesmeridicus]

Without hearing it ourselves it's hard to diagnose. Try this mes. Put the bike on the center stand so the rear wheel is off the ground. Start it in nuetral and then shift into first and let the clutch out slowly. Without resistence the wheel should turn even if the gear dogs are worn. Run the bike up through the gears and that will tell you if the drum,forks and other gears are good.
Go back down through the gears to first and goose the throttle in first and second. If you get a studdering feel in either or, or from first to second then it's the dremel fix you need.

Stuttering feel is in all gears.

Putting it up on the centerstand while running it and cycling the gears was a great, simple idea that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks. I video-recorded the process you suggested and I'll post it as soon as I can.

[mesmeridicus]

What do you mean "the bike will not move in any gear"? Can you be more specific? It's gone from a clunk and grinding to now not moving at all, apparently. What procedure have you done to establish that it won't move in any gear? Started it up and tried to ride it? Have you tried shifting through all the gears by rocking the bike forward and backwards and operating the gearshift lever (gears will rarely change through the sequence unless you do this).

The bike won't go. It won't move forward. It's trying, I can feel it stuttering slightly, but it can't. When on the centerstand, the rear wheel will spin in gear and respond to throttle so I know it's getting some power. When on the ground, however, it's not enough to move the bike.

I took it from neutral into first, and then up to five and back down into first. Same issue with all gears.

I enlisted my brother and we took two videos of me cycling through the gears -- one with the bike on the centerstand, the other on the ground. I'll upload them to YouTube and link them as soon as he sends them to me.

Interestingly, the grinding sound I heard when the bike is in gear seems to have become less pronounced (dull). I don't know if that's a function of something being progressively worn down as I've tested the bike over the past couple days, or what. Anyway, it's all in the videos.

[rdmcguy]

another good idea

Gotta love this site...All good suggestions to this point.
This might be another one...Set up a video camera and film the procedure,
you can decide how much or little of it to film...I think it might be easier than thumbing through a manual with greasy hands ...besides you can review it repeatedly before you reassemble....good luck

[mack]

Easier way

Without hearing it ourselves it's hard to diagnose. Try this mes. Put the bike on the center stand so the rear wheel is off the ground. Start it in nuetral and then shift into first and let the clutch out slowly. Without resistence the wheel should turn even if the gear dogs are worn. Run the bike up through the gears and that will tell you if the drum,forks and other gears are good.
Go back down through the gears to first and goose the throttle in first and second. If you get a studdering feel in either or, or from first to second then it's the dremel fix you need.
I've learned a quite a bit in the past few years, and started out just like you. These are well engineered bikes , very simple and durable machines. The most important thing I've learned is that if it doesn't fit right in, without having to force something, then your doing it wrong. The old,"get a bigger hammer" doesn't apply to these. I can't think of any problem that would force me to take one of my rides to a shop to have someone else, work on them. First, who could afford it. Second, I don't like anyone else touching my stuff. I trust ME to ensure it's done right and put back together and torqued properly. My life is on the line when ever I throw a leg over the seat and I'll be damned if I will trust my life to someone, who may be having a bad day.
Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty. Once you start, you'll learn to love it and knowing your bike is part of riding your bike. Someday it may have an issue not close to your parents house and you may have to fix it yourself on the side of a road in bum f..k nowhere with the tools you have on hand. Getting to know your bike will enable you to have the necessary stuff on hand.

[The Lorax]

Where in the area do you live? I'm up in the northeast Dayton area (Huber Heights) I have some trans work to do on mine, I'm not in a rush as I have another bike to ride, but I can push up my timetable a bit. I haven't decided how I'm getting into my tranny yet, flipping the bike or pulling the engine, pulling the engine only takes a couple or three hours unassisted. You're welcome to come by and observe or help out, gain the confidence you need to tackle yours or bring it with and we can tackle it together. In any case, PM me, we can talk, I work during the day, but most evenings are the usual honey do stuff or perhaps sitting on my ass after a few boilermakers. In any case, I'll help out where I can. Have a nice day and ride safe

[mack]

Curious

Seems to me that if the middle drive is rotating freely in neutral with non of the symptoms, it's functioning fine. I must plead ignorance here as non of my bikes have had the dreaded tranny issue, so I'm not familiar with the symptoms. If it was the second gear issue, would that make it grind in other gears? I'm not clear on how it would.
I was wondering if it's not a shift fork issue jumping out of the groove or being bent, preventing a complete change.
Mes have you taken off the left side (side stand side) cover and looked in there yet, to check for broken return springs and that the alignement dots on both the change lever and shift drum are correct?

[James England]

The issue is not just first or second gear, but all gears. The bike will not move in any gear. I'd hate to get halfway into the fix only to discover that it won't remedy the problem.

What do you mean "the bike will not move in any gear"? Can you be more specific? It's gone from a clunk and grinding to now not moving at all, apparently. What procedure have you done to establish that it won't move in any gear? Started it up and tried to ride it? Have you tried shifting through all the gears by rocking the bike forward and backwards and operating the gearshift lever (gears will rarely change through the sequence unless you do this).

Another thing.... You say you're not mechanically-minded but that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You won't learn a thing about anything unless you start doing it. You've not done this sort of thing before because you're not mechanically-minded; you're not mechanically-minded because you've never done this sort of thing before.

On an old bike like these, you'd be advised to do as much work yourself as possible and if that means taking a leap of faith and getting on with, then I'd just do it. Look upon it as a learning opportunity with step by step help and support from everyone here. However, if the reason for your not wanting to do it yourself is, say, that you really aren't that interested, or would prefer to do something else instead, then I think you may find running an older bike not really your thing. But...if it's just a confidence issue and a belief that you're not mechanically-minded, then here's your chance to change that!

[madmax-im]

I had the tranny issues too...I had no experience and I am only moderately mechanically inclined... I had a tremendous amount of help from Randy and then later from TC. I did all the prep work...which entails draining the engine,middle drive gear and final drive gear oils...dis-assembled some some parts on top and then flipped the bike upside down in my garage. We then removed the transmission through the clutch area and not split the cases....It was an interesting experience and it didnt all go as smoothly as I had hoped...but in the long run I got it done...BTW I did not do the dremel fix...which is an inexpensive fix...I went the more $$$ route and just bought new gearsets...gearssets are grouped...1st and 4th and 2nd and 5th.. so we just did a simple swap of gearsets...we also moved that washer over on the other side of 2nd gear. If it wasnt for this forum and the help I got that bike would problably be scrapped by now...The help and comraderie are priceless benefits to being a member at CH11...Good luck with it and dont despair..

[ViperRon]

Here is a thought even though you do not have experience you still can pull the middle drive and see if the issue is there. It is not that complicated but can take a little effort at times procedure is in book and there are a few threads here that give even a novice how to with no problem. If it is not there you can strip the bike for upside down, pull exhaust. pull plugs etc and set it on a stand and pull the oil pan and do examination. There is nothing complicated about getting to this point. Once you are here you can rotate the engine by hand looking at gears and shafts and may find the area of failure. If you are going to get someone to come help I know they will appreciate you doing as much prep work and getting tools and work area set up. If you can Identify the issue and get parts or verify the problem visually you will be that much further along to where when someone comes they are not looking for the problem they are fixing. If you focus you might be surprised at what you can do if you really want to.