Teach Me How to Shift on Yamaha Motorcycles [1st to 2nd Gear Clash]

[D0wn5h1ft]

Having some troubles with yamaha transmission. This applies to my XS1100 as well as my new FZR600 so I don't think I'm breaking this sub-forum rules.

Whenever I shift from 1st to 2nd when I'm really opening her up and accelerating quickly from stop I get a grinding noise and it seems like 2nd doesn't want to engage. I had the problem with my '78 XS1100 and now with my FZR600.

When I'm just beebopping around at regular rpms shifting goes smoothly and I don't get any gear clash but when I accelerate quickly and try to shift from 1st to 2nd I get issues about 60% of the time. I am fully disengaging the clutch and the clutch is properly adjusted so I know that it's not because power is still going to the countershaft. These are fast bikes and I can't imagine that they aren't capable of high rates of acceleration and quick shifting.

What I've seen reading through forum searches is that when you do a high rpm shift it takes longer for the countershaft to slow down enough for the next gear to engage. Also, that this problem is exclusive to 1st to 2nd gear upshifts and 2nd to 1st downshifts namely because they are the only gear changes that have a free spinning gear being engaged with the slots of a gear that's fixed to the countershaft. I guess let me explain that more:

Upshifting (slightly different for a six speed):
-1st to 2nd --> shift fork pulls 1st dogs off of 4th gear slots and pushes 2nd dogs onto 5th gear slots
-2nd to 3rd --> shift fork pulls first off and drive gear engages fixed 3rd gear
-3rd to 4th --> shift fork pushes drive gear onto fixed 4th gear
etc.

Downshifting (D0wn5h1ft'ing ) (again, slight different for six speed):
-3rd to 2nd --> shift fork pushes 2nd dogs into 5th slots
-2nd to 1st --> shift fork pushes 2nd dog out of 5th (fixed) slots and 1st dogs into 4th (fixed) slots

As you can see, I think the issues is only present with 1to2 and 2to1 is because they are the changes where free spinning gears are being meshed with the fixed gears on the countershaft.

So my question is how do I prevent the gear grinding, which is horrible for these old transmission, during fast acceleration at high rpms? I know one solution is hold the clutch in longer before shifting which allows the countershaft to slow down more allowing the gears to actually engage the countershaft without grinding. But this leads to granny shifting and I just refuse to believe that these high performance bikes are incapable of this kind of shifting.

Another question is would changing up the kind of oil I use possibly relieve some of these issues. I've heard of limited success with people who change over to a full synthetic without the friction modifiers of course since it promotes better transmission operation. Or even to a heavier oil because the higher viscosity slows the countershaft down faster when it's freespinning.

The engineer side of me wishes that the yamaha engineers would have thought of some kind of countershaft dampener that would slow the rotation speed of the countershaft when the clutch is disengaged on these unsynchronized transmission. Sort of like this:

http://www.google.com/patents/US3478615

Pretty interesting read actually. Next time I get my hands on a junk xs series bike I'm going to try my hand at a custom fabricated dampener like this and maybe come up with some cool results.

[IanDMacDonald]

It's an interesting topic u posted here, but one piece of advice I have for you is to go back to stock clutch play on your XS. When I rode your bike, you had it set for a short throw like a dirt bike. If you set your FZR like that, maybe it's related. Also, coming from a racing background, I tend to think I shift a little hotter than others I see and hear. I do notice many quick shift between gears never really letting the bike wind up. These are not semis requiring a low rpm shift. If I am taking it easy, I shift somewhere after 3500rpm. If I'm opening her up, sometimes damn-near redline. Sometimes though, I think the rpms outmatch the wheel spinning, as it's just all throttle I get racing it like that. I have come across that false neutral, and I just take it easier on my shifting.

[BA80]

I am a rather aggressive shifter also. I have found that on up shifts it's much easier for me to just not use the clutch but just match the engine rpms to the next gear.

I just put pressure on the shift lever and quickly let off the throttle and then back on as soon as it shifts. A quick flick of the wrist. I shift up through all gears like this with virtually no gear clash at all. This method requires some practice to perfect it and still requires a solid positive shift but becomes second nature after a while.

The clutch is still necessary for downshifts and speed shifting but under normal acceleration can feel almost like an automatic transmission type shift when done with the correct coordination and timing.

[WMarshy]

This issue is not exclusive to 1-2 gear changes. I feel it predominately occurs shifting from 3 into 4 resulting in a false neutral if you don't "follow thorough" and give the dogs enough time to mesh.

Does anyone know if the FJ suffers from the same issues? Anyone know if the FJ gears can be used in the XS?

[fredintoon]

I said it first - - -

Hi Gabe,
- - - and that was years back. "The XS11 shifts gears like a Russian tractor"
Even with the clutch in perfect adjustment a slow and deliberate gear shift is the best way to eliminate the XS11's nasty lower gear shift crunch and even that don't always work.
As to the 600's shifting, I dunno, but consider how many teenage POs have been wheelieing that bike before you got it, the 1st to 2nd shift is most likely plain ol' worn out.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Downshift,

It sounds like you're not blipping/letting off of the throttle adequeately enough during/before the shift attempt. I commonly rev it up to 7.5 rpm when accelerating and shifting up thru the gears, and it will shift quickly and completely, but I do have to let off of the throttle for a split second while I'm upshifting. I, too, have found the false neutral between 4th and 5th(not 3rd to 4th) if I'm not aggessive and forcefully actuate the shift lever!

I have ridden a 600cc sport bike, my half bro's at rally a few years ago, and had no problem with revving it and upshifting without grinding gears.

The XS's gears are definitely not synchromesh style! Ian made a comment about how you have your clutch lever "play" set....hard to determine from his description....whether you have it set so that you have the lever set so that it's close to the bar and you only have to pull it a little to get the clutch to disengage??

The XS's clutch lever arm at the engine does go thru a fair amount of movement, and so even though you do want a little slack in the lever, you want it so that you can get a good distance of pull on the lever so that you can be sure to fully disengage the clutch when you are pulling the lever.

Even with non-friction modifiers in the full synth, it can still contribute to clutch slip....if your clutch springs are marginal. And due to the looser tolerances of the engine/piston/rings, etc., oil contamination will still occur relatively quickly, along with the extra heat of the air cooled engine, and so you end up having to change the oil around 3k miles anyways, so full synth ends up being a rather expensive process vs. just a good quality multivisc like Castrol GTX 20-50 or equivalent.

T.C.

[MarkD]

Truth be known, I don't shift my XSF too aggressively, (save the times I'm on a good clear straightaway), and I have no issues with the trans. All this shift talk, got me remembering how I raced my TM125 (MX) in '75 and '76. Off the line, I seldom used the clutch at all to upshift. It took too long. When I did use the clutch, I power shifted. I've even occasionally skipped using the clutch on other bikes I've owned, but seldom, as I always wondered if that method damaged the gears.

[BA80]

A cleanly executed power shift is the easiest on the gear dogs. A sloppy clattering clutch shift and especially speed shifts are what damages gears.

The key to minimum damage is a solid positive shift in any case.

[D0wn5h1ft]

I've been trying out really deliberately rolling completely off the throttle as I have a tendency to hover over the clutch lever when I take off in first and I have noticed that the gear grinding occurs less. Having driven newer motorcycles and dirt bikes I guess I'm just used to not having things shift like I'm driving a big rig (this applies to my XS and FZR). What has changed so much in the last decade in motorcycle transmissions that make them seem so much smoother?

[IanDMacDonald]

Sync-mesh trannys. But, I can shift my old CB's, GS's, XS's, etc. just as well and fast as I can my CBR, GSX's and few other sport bikes.

Listening to how u shifted on your '78, it sounded too quick and as if u were just up-shifting cuz that's what you think the bike needs. Sometimes you don't have to be @ 3k riding around town. I know some riders that cruise @ 45mph in fifth gear. I enjoy the burst of speed needed to get me out of something, so I frequent 2nd and 3rd gear under 45mph. 4th gear a little faster. It's a much easier process coming from stick-shift cars, as u understand to listen to the engine, instead of watching the tach. In racing, u watch the tach over listening to the engine.

However, letting any bike unwind at high rpms gets u bad attention unless ur away from civilization. I recommend to be responsible and ride your bikes slow as a means of transportation, and not a show-off piece.

[donebysunday]

Sync-mesh trannys. But, I can shift my old CB's, GS's, XS's, etc. just as well and fast as I can my CBR, GSX's and few other sport bikes.

Listening to how u shifted on your '78, it sounded too quick and as if u were just up-shifting cuz that's what you think the bike needs. Sometimes you don't have to be @ 3k riding around town. I know some riders that cruise @ 45mph in fifth gear. I enjoy the burst of speed needed to get me out of something, so I frequent 2nd and 3rd gear under 45mph. 4th gear a little faster. It's a much easier process coming from stick-shift cars, as u understand to listen to the engine, instead of watching the tach. In racing, u watch the tach over listening to the engine.

However, letting any bike unwind at high rpms gets u bad attention unless ur away from civilization. I recommend to be responsible and ride your bikes slow as a means of transportation, and not a show-off piece.

+1 If you take the time to learn the shifting ( shall I call it a curve ) you will find steath is golden, in the hood I want to be silent. Out on the main streets I'll give er hell, ring the bells. This is for those special times !!!!!

[WMarshy]

Sync-mesh trannys. But, I can shift my old CB's, GS's, XS's, etc. just as well and fast as I can my CBR, GSX's and few other sport bikes.

Listening to how u shifted on your '78, it sounded too quick and as if u were just up-shifting cuz that's what you think the bike needs. Sometimes you don't have to be @ 3k riding around town. I know some riders that cruise @ 45mph in fifth gear. I enjoy the burst of speed needed to get me out of something, so I frequent 2nd and 3rd gear under 45mph. 4th gear a little faster. It's a much easier process coming from stick-shift cars, as u understand to listen to the engine, instead of watching the tach. In racing, u watch the tach over listening to the engine.

However, letting any bike unwind at high rpms gets u bad attention unless ur away from civilization. I recommend to be responsible and ride your bikes slow as a means of transportation, and not a show-off piece.

I think its easy to say that most everyone commenting in this thread, experiencing this issue, are skilled enough to understand the concept of listening to the engine and picking shift points vs shifting for 1/4 mile time... My point is this issue is definitely a character of the bike/transmission and wont be resolved (100%) by operator practice.

I can tell you from personal experience, the issue will happens regardless if you are out for your sunday drive or if you are shifting in the red and blowing out the carbon. I seem to find the false neutral more often when I'm on my sunday drive because my mind is less focused on a clean shifts. When Im horsin' it, I expect the delay and compensate for it. I love the bike but wish it had fewer quarks which takes away from the riding experience.

I will likely be making a trip into my tranny this winter so maybe I will find I have a worn or bent shift fork...

[Prothec]

I am a rather aggressive shifter also. I have found that on up shifts it's much easier for me to just not use the clutch but just match the engine rpms to the next gear.
...

+1

When accelerating hard, I often shift without the clutch in the lower gears, or use varying amounts of clutch based on feel.

On another note, if you find yourself stuck in a false neutral, don't try to jam it back into gear. Blip the throttle first, then shift.

[mack]

Pre loading

These bike can be as smooth as an automatic passing up and down in all gears if you preload the shifter. Even when your short shifting so as to not scare the kids on back.
Learning to shift these tranny's properly is as basic a requirement as counter steering.