Shift Pawls

[3Phase]

Danger Will Robinson!

Hey, Done,

Stick with the 2nd gear washer swap if you can and like Tod says, don't grind the dogs/slots unless you have to do it. I tried the 1st gear washer/shim trick when I rebuilt the engine in Columbo and there's a little more to it and it's actually kind of dangerous.

Among a few other issues: changing the 1st gear shimming brought 1st gear a few fine frog hairs too close to 4th. In Neutral with the engine running I could hear and feel 1st and 4th clicking against each other and trying to 'grab' 1st gear. I took it apart, put in the original shims and left it alone after that.

.

[donebysunday]

Thanks Guys !!!!!

Leaving this set of gears with the 2nd gear washer swap and back together it goes.

Done };~)

[DGXSER]

Hey Done,

On the older engines, as has been stated, first gear was not as much an issue as second gear. But both have been known to have problems. Seen some with 1, 2, and 3rd problems (other on this site, none I have worked on).

So, the gears you got from Andreas look be pretty good condition. The best way I know to determine how much of an issue first has had is to look at the shift fork, and also look at the metal wedge between the grooves in first where the dogs would slide across if they skipped. Some wear is bound to be there as the nature of the beast is such that the gear will slid across to drop into the slots. But if you can see wear, any visible depression in the metal where it slides, I take that as an indication the gear has been skipping.

2nd will probably be fine with just the washer swap, more than a few folks who know their rectum from a worm hole have stated that just the washer swap has worked fine for them for years.

All that said, reality is the only way to know for sure is to try it and see how it performs. So...back to the question of how much do you want to avoid pulling them again IF it turns out the washer swap is not enough, or IF first gear is not as solid as it looks? Compare that answer to how much you want to avoid cutting the gears. There is your answer.

[trbig]

I've never had to redo a Dremmel fix, and doubt anyone will, because there'll really not be anything there to grind on. Like I was saying, if you look at the dogs of 5th after they've been run a while after the grinding, you'll sit there and scratch your head as to why they're even working. The dogs just become blobs of metal with the leading edge shiny and shaped like the slots. Bevelling the gears (Back cutting) is also a waste of time and material. After very little time, the bevel is gone and you've just got a blob of metal with a flat contact point that it's been formed into. You'd be better off keeping all the material you can on the dogs and just cut them at a 90 degree angle.

As for moving 1st closer with a shim, I have tried this and reported on it quite a while back. I found some washers that were the exact size as the stock one, but exactly half the thickness. I placed one of these behind 4th and one in front, essentially moving 4th gear half the washer thickness distance to first for a deeper engagement. It was a failed experiment. When in 4th gear, 1st and 4th made contact slightly and would grind. It wiped first gear out in just a few hundred miles.

My next experiment was going to be trying to re-harden the dogs after grinding. Ben even sent me a set to try it on since I was going through gears and motors fairly regularly, but have apparently built a motor to last this last go 'round and haven't been back in there for anything really major.

So, I've given my opinion and think that anyone doing a gear grind as a pre-emptive strike vs a last resort makes absolutely zero sense to me. Hardened gears are going to last you the longest, so the longer you keep them that way the better... especially if you're prone to right wrist convulsions like me. You can't UN-grind them once you do and they aren't making any more of them. If you do the washer swap, you'll never have to worry about 2nd by looking at those gears. Someone good with these gear fixes can do a set in the afternoon, so it's not like you're saving yourself some huge giant expensively tedious endeavor in the future or something that's going to leave you stranded on the side of the road if it does go bad later.

Just my 2 cents.. if it's worth even that.

[donebysunday]

To your question OldNorton, There is a washer on the fourth gear side of first that could be moved. I do not recall anyone ever doing it. I am also not aware of any one installing the 1 MM shims mentioned on first gear. As long as Tod is correct and they do not cause interference between 1st and fourth in operation when not engaged, I would think there could be no harm in it, and there may be an advantage.

I will also add that to date I have not heard of anyone that performed the dremel repair on an tranny having to go back in and repeat it.

There are many XS11 owners who have never needed to perform this repair, so it is not an across the board needed modification.

Thank You Don !
I might try this first gear double ( 1 on each side ) 1mm washer/s. On the other hand if you look at my post (#8 ) it looks like at least in the bike they were in the 1st gear was being pretty well engaged, yes ? The next thing is the older gears had the double row bearing too, if that makes any difference ?
Then see my post (#12 ) you will see how little of the dogs were actually engaged. Think I should clean them up a bit now that I've done the washer switch ?

Thank You So Much ! Done };~)

[DGXSER]

So here is my experiences to date, and this on 5 different XS11 engines to date. Every one I have pulled the gears from to do the dremel repair has not had any issue with the countershaft bolt being loose or eaten. One did have the oil pump idler gear come off and needed replacing, one other had the C-clip that holds the oil pump idler gear on loose in the pan, but the gear was fine and in place.

Over the years I have been a member here I have seen a lot of discussion about the removal of the hardened casing of the gears, and a lot of discussion about shifting of the washer on 2nd gear and the C-clip riding against the gear. To date, I am not aware of anyone finding any evidence that the gears wear quicker after being dremeled, or that the C-clip or the gear show any wear patterns from the clip riding against the gear. Reality is that 2nd gear rotates with the shaft and the clip, so they are relatively stationary to each other throughout operation.

To your question OldNorton, There is a washer on the fourth gear side of first that could be moved. I do not recall anyone ever doing it. I am also not aware of any one installing the 1 MM shims mentioned on first gear. As long as Tod is correct and they do not cause interference between 1st and fourth in operation when not engaged, I would think there could be no harm in it, and there may be an advantage.

I will also add that to date I have not heard of anyone that performed the dremel repair on an tranny having to go back in and repeat it.

There are many XS11 owners who have never needed to perform this repair, so it is not an across the board needed modification.

[donebysunday]

¿Will the above same washer location swap give more engagement of the dogs of 1st gear, also; Or is there some other, different "washer" location, or change, that will give greater engagement for the dogs of 1st gear?

I found a couple threads on these Mc Master 1mm shims I bought Not sure if I should use them on 1st gear ?
Here is part of one of the threads with a link to it.
Done };~)

I may be wrong in my thinking, but with 6 dogs engaging it and the gear being solid instead of cut-out like the rest of them, they intended this gear to be a bit stouter and handle more stress than the rest. It seems that the washer being thinner may help if it gets 1st closer, but the dogs and 4th gear can only come so far, then they hit that spring clip keeper. So 1st would have to come closer to the dogs. The parts all fit together pretty solidly, so I think that if you took 1mm away from the washer between 1st and 4th, to keep the middle drive gear and 1st from wallowing back and forth, you'd have to put another 1mm washer on the back side of the middle drive between the clip on the outside of that gear and the clip out there to take up the slack. This would essentially move the middle drive gear and 1st gear 1mm closer to 4th.

I wonder if you can buy a 1mm thick washer this size? I'd like to try it sometime. I don't think it would be enough to worry about the dogs and 1st not disengaging... you're not talking much movement. BUT.. there's not much "Meat" those dogs are contacting... so 1mm might make a BIG difference. I just went and checked, and neither washer on either set of gears I have has any wear to it, so it's not like their taking a beating in there.

Any other thoughts?

Tod
Link to this thread http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14621

[oldnortonrider]

-1... lol.


Post a pic of 2nd gear and the dogs. DON'T grind them if they don't need them. Dremmeling the gears cuts through the case hardness of them. Unless 2nd gear is pretty bad, moving the washer to the other side just about doubles the gear engagement. If it wasn't skipping before, it'll never skip after the washer swap.

So, I have to disagree here and say that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. I consider the gear fix a necessary evil to fix skipping gears, but only as a last measure, not a preventive maintenance.

¿Will the above same washer location swap give more engagement of the dogs of 1st gear, also; Or is there some other, different "washer" location, or change, that will give greater engagement for the dogs of 1st gear?

[motoman]

Since doing the 'dremal' fix on my H's tranny, I have always wondered why I didn't need to do the washer swap. When assembly in place, shift forks kicked the gears over far enough that the dogs were flush with backside of ajoining gear slots. Never figured out if clearances and travel distances were different or what. With that said, I sure some are questioning "why the fix needed in the first place". In answer to that, what I found to be the issue(could of vry well been a catastrophic failure), was upon dissasembly the bolt/washer that holds shaft assembly tight up against that right side inner bearing race had fallen out, who knows when prior to me installing that matching year/model motor. It was ground to a nice tapered point like an oversized mixture screw and rounded on bolt head side beyond recognition(still have it as a conversation piece). I personnally rode that motor for two yrs. before fixing, skipping second gear. Of course, bad shifts had damaged SEVERAL star washers during that period, along with knocking off the opposite side cir-clips of fork shaft and oil pump idler gear floating around grinding on that large shaft bolt laying in sidecase. That shaft assembly floating back and forth kept full engagement of the dogs happening, gradually rounding off the what used to be a nice square edge of the dogs on most of the gears besides second. Interesting that second was the only gear engagement that ever gave an issue though, even when stopped. Any clutch release in second from a stop would hammer the hell out of things. The fix came when I had to push that full dressed sled home exactly a mile having damaged the keeper star washer and dropping out of the pin leaving bike in nuetral with no way of rotating shift pawl assembly....two different times, months apart, and at same location. Least it was fairly flat with little incline. Any ideas as to why this particular shaft assembly and fork assembly had full engagement otherwise? Don't be shy.

[donebysunday]

That damage to your shift forks is most likely from a PO standing on the shift lever to hold the gear in place so it would not skip. I've seen a couple like that before.

As for the gears, they look about brand spanking new. But they are the original style gears with no back cutting. Now the big question, are you a cruiser type of rider, never go over 3k rpm, never really hit the throttle hard, or are you looking to use the torque and power these engines generate?

If your a cruiser style of rider, your gears will be fine with no work done, maybe swap the washer on 2nd gear. A fellow local XSive has over 80k on his one owner SG, been from Cincy to Cali and all around the states on it. Never had any problems with the gears. Also never been over 5k rpm, and since I have known him, never saw him accelerate hard.

Now, if your looking for that power and torque this bike can and will produce when prompted properly by the twisting thing in your right hand, well then you may want to consider a preemptive strike. IMHO, Go ahead and back cut those gears now to save yourself the trouble in the not so distant future.

So it is a matter of choice and how you plan to use the magical machine.

I'm one that likes to crank on it 1/3 of the time.
I learned back in 79-86 that the 11 needs special treatment, so my procedure.
When cold starting warm it in neutral, turn it off, put it in 1st, grab the front brake, restart, it will want to jump forward as the clutch frees up, go easy the first 1/2 doz. blocks, saves the hoods ears too, don't want any bad vibes ! Have to stop, I leave it in 2nd, take off in 2nd. When I hit the main road I will not be run over even starting in second. Then every once and awhile I'll stop in 1st look around real good and I'm gone if I happen to be at the head of the line ? Sometimes I'll let the car next to me keep up for a block, then gone with the exhaust sounding like a big cat just wanting to rip the road off.

[donebysunday]

That gear by itself off the shaft is 5th gear. Those 3 dogs engage the slots on the gear next to it which is 2nd gear. If at all possible, could you get a closer pic of the dogs there on 5th and the slots in that 2nd gear? You've got a pretty close pic of 1st gear, and I wouldn't mess with it. It still looks good.

As I said, by moving that washer to the other side of 2nd, you basically double the gear engagement, and even a bike that is just showing the first signs of skipping, I think the washer swap without grinding on the gears would fix it.

If you guys could see what happens to these gears after you grind them and run them a while, it'd probably scare you like it does me. Sure, the fix gets you back on the road, and I've done lots of hard miles after the fix, but you look at the misshapen lumps of metal that have squished and formed to the slots, I don't understand how they still work. Grinding takes off all the hard stuff and leaves the soft metal underneath. Grinding gears that don't need it is a bit like going to the dentist and getting a healthy tooth ground down and a crown put on to ward off possible future cavities. Grinding is simply a last-ditch effort to save the gears.

Thank You !
Yes it's one of the older trans that had used the double row bearing.





I'll take more if needed, not sure of the detail on these ? TIA ! Done };~)

[DGXSER]

That damage to your shift forks is most likely from a PO standing on the shift lever to hold the gear in place so it would not skip. I've seen a couple like that before.

As for the gears, they look about brand spanking new. But they are the original style gears with no back cutting. Now the big question, are you a cruiser type of rider, never go over 3k rpm, never really hit the throttle hard, or are you looking to use the torque and power these engines generate?

If your a cruiser style of rider, your gears will be fine with no work done, maybe swap the washer on 2nd gear. A fellow local XSive has over 80k on his one owner SG, been from Cincy to Cali and all around the states on it. Never had any problems with the gears. Also never been over 5k rpm, and since I have known him, never saw him accelerate hard.

Now, if your looking for that power and torque this bike can and will produce when prompted properly by the twisting thing in your right hand, well then you may want to consider a preemptive strike. IMHO, Go ahead and back cut those gears now to save yourself the trouble in the not so distant future.

So it is a matter of choice and how you plan to use the magical machine.

[bikerphil]

Those look like the older type gears with no dovetail machining on the dogs/slots. They do look like they are in good condition though.

[trbig]

That gear by itself off the shaft is 5th gear. Those 3 dogs engage the slots on the gear next to it which is 2nd gear. If at all possible, could you get a closer pic of the dogs there on 5th and the slots in that 2nd gear? You've got a pretty close pic of 1st gear, and I wouldn't mess with it. It still looks good.

As I said, by moving that washer to the other side of 2nd, you basically double the gear engagement, and even a bike that is just showing the first signs of skipping, I think the washer swap without grinding on the gears would fix it.

If you guys could see what happens to these gears after you grind them and run them a while, it'd probably scare you like it does me. Sure, the fix gets you back on the road, and I've done lots of hard miles after the fix, but you look at the misshapen lumps of metal that have squished and formed to the slots, I don't understand how they still work. Grinding takes off all the hard stuff and leaves the soft metal underneath. Grinding gears that don't need it is a bit like going to the dentist and getting a healthy tooth ground down and a crown put on to ward off possible future cavities. Grinding is simply a last-ditch effort to save the gears.

[donebysunday]

-1... lol.


Post a pic of 2nd gear and the dogs. DON'T grind them if they don't need them. Dremmeling the gears cuts through the case hardness of them. Unless 2nd gear is pretty bad, moving the washer to the other side just about doubles the gear engagement. If it wasn't skipping before, it'll never skip after the washer swap.

So, I have to disagree here and say that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. I consider the gear fix a necessary evil to fix skipping gears, but only as a last measure, not a preventive maintenance.

Thank You !

Hope this shows up clear enough !