Shift Pawls

[donebysunday]

Did I move the wrong washer ?
I moved first gear washer to the other side of the gear.

It sounds like I should have moved the washer on 2nd gear ?

I'm f**ked, pull it all back apart and start over.

What the F**K ?

This information from you all may have caused a part out.

Thanks ! Done Done Done };~)

So sorry ! Re-read my post and found I spoke before I thought ?

This information from you all may have caused a stop of a part out.

Got the gear cluster back out, did the dremel on the slots, evened out the dogs and will check for slight angle. So far with the bench test, dogs are pretty even with the slots, will double check before install with angle gauge.

Oh by the way I did move the right washer !!!!!

Thank You All ! Done };~)

[donebysunday]

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16390

Go to Tod's post #7.

Thanks Marty !!!!!

[jetmechmarty]

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16390

Go to Tod's post #7.

[donebysunday]

Did I move the wrong washer ?
I moved first gear washer to the other side of the gear.

It sounds like I should have moved the washer on 2nd gear ?

I'm f**ked, pull it all back apart and start over.

What the F**K ?

This information from you all may have caused a part out.

Thanks ! Done Done Done };~)

[jetmechmarty]

I couldn't be convinced to grind on mine. The way I see it, each dog has to be cut exactly the same. The slots have to be cut to match. I'm not capable of doing it. A machinist would have to do it. The dogs and slots won't match up after a Dremel grind. They'll be smashed into submission as Tod pointed out, or a dog will break off. I know I get carried away, but I don't see it as a satisfactory fix if there is any alternative. That's why I bought new gears and moved the washer. Since then, the new gears are NLA.

I have an XS650. The transmission looks to be just about as stout as what's in the XS1100. I broke a dog off the fifth gear wheel on that bike.

[trbig]

I remember the original intent of the gear grinding and beveling of the dogs/slots was to get the gears to where they would pull each other together under pressure, but knowing what I do now about what happens to the gears after riding a little bit, they just get smashed together after you grind through the case hardening, and angling them is pretty pointless. I see he went ahead and ground them. Moot point.

Honestly, the best option, besides new gears, would be to grind the gears, do the washer swap, run the gears a few hundred miles, then pull them back out and let a shop case harden the gears again. Probably wouldn't be much to just harden those dogs, but the labor taking them in and out sucks. If you hardened the gears after grinding before letting them run together, they had better be EXACT.. or all the pressure is going to be on just one dog. If re-hardened, it'd probably just break that dog off.

[3Phase]

Actually I don't mind at all, Tod.

I agree with you and I've been trying to talk him out of grinding down the gears! Seems to be determined... shift like he means it, with authority, because lazy and missed shifts chew up the transmission: Russian tractor.

The photos aren't that blurry and while there is some oil on the gears there are no grease spots. There is (or was) a burr and the slots are spalled but the washer swap should take care of it. Any burrs or rough spots can and should be ground off and cleaned up without grinding away both gears.

To make sure the shift forks aren't bent and everything else is going according to plan the shift throw, gear engagement depth and contact areas should have been checked after the washer swap but before the complete gear stack was put back in along with the accompaniment of ringing church bells but it's easy enough to check all of that with a candle and carbon before the engine is buttoned up.


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[donebysunday]

Wait I think maybe valid point, better pics could help ?







Then the measurements -

[trbig]

Just use the Dremel to clean up any rough spots like that hammered metal hangnail-looking thing on 5th gear without cutting away any more of the hardened metal than necessary.

You mean the frikin blobs of grease there? I just can't believe how anxious all of you are to get this guy to grinding on his gears for some reason. It's insane. The slots in 2nd look especially good, so why would you tell him to grind those also? You grind second gear slots to square up rounded slot edges, so you want him to just start hacking away on those for some reason also?

Do what you want, Done, but I just have to say you're getting some really destructive, unneeded, and irreversable advice here.. but it's your bike. Your gears are going to work just fine without grinding and I don't understand why you'd need to "Shift it like you mean it" when moving the washer is going to give you about double the contact area. Any contact spots on the gears that someone sees from some fuzzy pics isn't going to be the same contact spots after the washer swap, and even if you didn't swap it, it still makes no sense that you'd have to shift any different than at any other time.

3phase, I hope you don't take this personally. I know you mean well and are only trying to help. I just can't understand "fixing" something that's not broke.

[3Phase]

You're there looking at the gears, not me! At one time 2nd gear was obviously sharp enough to groove with the big dogs but now it looks like they're beaten out of round and and the slots look like they've spalled into a ski jump.

So compare and contrast the old/new contact areas and engagement depths of the decel sides with the accel sides using candle soot, then listen to the intro to this Led Zeppelin song while you imagine your transmission is a Yamaha drum kit with 1st/4th and 2nd/5th as large/small high-hat cymbals:-

Rock And Roll

Is your kit strong enough to even make it through the intro or will it crack, bang, and skip? Do you think it can be set up, tuned and made healthy enough to hang in there for just one more song, the whole concert, or the rest of the tour?

.

[donebysunday]

Thank You !
Yes it's one of the older trans that had used the double row bearing.





I'll take more if needed, not sure of the detail on these ? TIA ! Done };~)

So by the looks of it I'll need to mic up the dogs on 5th and take them down, at a 90° to the gear. Because of the sharp cut into the dogs made by the slot I would think the slots are fine. Yes ?

Thank You Scott ! Done };~)

[3Phase]

From reading another thread I see you've already had the church bells ring when you got the gear stack back in the engine.

Don't undercut just 5th gear, you'll mess up both gears if you only undercut one gear. What's already gone is gone but you can see in the pictures you took where the 5th gear dogs have been fitting into the 2nd gear slots. Just use the Dremel to clean up any rough spots like that hammered metal hangnail-looking thing on 5th gear without cutting away any more of the hardened metal than necessary.

Run a candle around the 5th gear dogs to get them nice and black, then stick the gear back in the case without buttoning everything back up and use the shift lever to put the transmission in 2nd gear. Do not use your hand to engage 5th gear with 2nd gear, you want the shift lever, shift drum and shift fork to do it just like it will when you're riding.

When the transmission is in 2nd gear, rotate 2nd gear clockwise and counter-clockwise so the accel/decel slots in 2nd gear hit the accel/decel faces of the 5th gear dogs.

Take 5th gear back out of the case and LOOK at it closely. The marks in the carbon from the candle will show the new contact areas and you can compare the new with the old to see if the dogs are going far enough into 2nd gear and getting a good bite on the slots with the washer swap.

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[donebysunday]

Well, you kind of took pictures of the wrong side of the 5th gear dogs (two deceleration faces, only one acceleration), with no real close-ups of the 2nd gear slots. You might get by with the washer swap if you shift with authority.

From what I can see in the pictures, the deceleration sides of the dogs and slots look good but the acceleration sides aren't so good.

The acceleration sides of the 2nd gear slots look like they have been... gnawed upon.

The one acceleration face on the 5th gear dog in your photographs looks like it's got a groove hammered into it that's just started to go through the hardened outer metal shell of the gear and into the soft inner metal cheese underneath it. There's also what looks like a small bit of metal that's been forced out of the groove enough to stick out and get hammered down too.


Shift it like you mean it!

.

Exactly why I posted those pics but no one seemed to think twice about them. I can still pull that 5th gear out and dremel it, I think maybe the best thing to do at this point before I button it up !

Thank You !!!!! Done };~)

[3Phase]

Well, you kind of took pictures of the wrong side of the 5th gear dogs (two deceleration faces, only one acceleration), with no real close-ups of the 2nd gear slots. You might get by with the washer swap if you shift with authority.

From what I can see in the pictures, the deceleration sides of the dogs and slots look good but the acceleration sides aren't so good.

The acceleration sides of the 2nd gear slots look like they have been... gnawed upon.

The one acceleration face on the 5th gear dog in your photographs looks like it's got a groove hammered into it that's just started to go through the hardened outer metal shell of the gear and into the soft inner metal cheese underneath it. There's also what looks like a small bit of metal that's been forced out of the groove enough to stick out and get hammered down too.


Shift it like you mean it!

.

[donebysunday]

Hey, Done,

Stick with the 2nd gear washer swap if you can and like Tod says, don't grind the dogs/slots unless you have to do it. I tried the 1st gear washer/shim trick when I rebuilt the engine in Columbo and there's a little more to it and it's actually kind of dangerous.

Among a few other issues: changing the 1st gear shimming brought 1st gear a few fine frog hairs too close to 4th. In Neutral with the engine running I could hear and feel 1st and 4th clicking against each other and trying to 'grab' 1st gear. I took it apart, put in the original shims and left it alone after that.

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Ouch ! Another tear down and re-do, glad I did not do that. We will see about not grinding the dogs on the 5th gear ? You can see in the pics of post 12 how they have been grabbing.