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New Member - I let my SH sit for 8 years until now

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  • New Member - I let my SH sit for 8 years until now

    Hello, XS/XJer's! I'm a new member, and this is my first post here, but I'm not new to using this forum or my XS1100 SH. I've had my 81 XS1100 Special since March of 1995... over 18 years now. It's all-stock: stock exhaust, fuse, airbox, etc... no custom upgrades, although tires and fuel lines aren't original, and seat was recovered. Aside from pulsating front brakes from day one and an odometer that's been stuck on 100 miles since I bought it, everything was just great until 2005.

    I got it out that year, and it would only run on 3 cylinders. Ah, that's what I get for not prepping it for winters! So I tore down the carbs and cleaned all the jets in July of that year. Put it back together, fired up, ran all cylinders great as usual again! But oh no! The next time I go to ride, gas is all over the floor! OK, so something must have gotten stuck in the seat, so I better turn off the petcocks for now. But I found it did the same thing even if the petcocks were set to "off." Pulled the carbs again, cleaned out the seats again, and used the off-bike float level test. No go - still overflowing on one or more carbs. So I didn't even bother installing the carbs and set everything aside storing the bike in my walk-out basement.

    In May of 2006, I ordered all new needles, seats, o-rings, petcocks/octopus rebuild kit. But the bike continued to sit in my basement for just over 8 years with no carbs on it, no type of storage prep. I had intended to get back to it years sooner, but time got a way from me at I involved myself with other interests, and it wasn't until a week ago that I finally took a wrench to those carbs again. I completely disassembled short of the butterflies/throttle shafts. After soaking metal parts in carb cleaner (not the bodies) and then cleaning & verifying all passages on carbs were clear, I reassembled. I, of course, verified the float levels and that it wasn't leaking using the off-bike method shown on this forum... using a level, transparent tubing, taking care to get accurate readings after allowing the fuel to resettle after moving the tube up/down. It looked good, just like here:
    http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76
    Plus... no more leaks!

    There was some rust in the tank, so I treated that by rotating the over several days using Evaporust - it worked, and I installed rebuilt petcocks and added gas. I was concerned about the cylinders/rings/pistons after being in one position for 8 years, so I let some penetrating oil soak in the cylinders for a day, then got out all I could, and verified the engine turned by hand. After charging the old battery with a slow charge, it cranked it well also. OK, so I installed the carbs (was much more difficult this time), hooked up new fuel lines, the gas tank, installed the plugs, and finally fired it up. There was some heavy blue smoke for a while, and I let it warm up a while... still running rough. Then I changed the oil and filter... putting in 20W50.

    After that, it still smoked after it warmed up out of the left exhaust, even after a short ride, but then I took it for a 20 mile ride, and it performed mostly well, except when RPMs got down around 2000 rpm, a little hesitation and lack of power. At 2500+, it was pretty good... as I remembered it. And the next time I started it and let it warm up, it no longer smoked, either! What was really bothering me was that while idling, the throttle would no longer pop up instantly like it used to. It would hesitate before increasing rpms at a slower increase in RPMs than it used to, just as the lower RPMs shows hesitation and performance issues on the ride. And the idle wouldn't lock-in and stay consistent if left idling after warming up. I hoped some minor mixture adjustments and carb sync would dial it in.

    The plugs looked lean across the board to me, so I enriched the mixture. Then I did the carb sync and brought them all in line, even swapping guages to verify consistency. The problem is... that didn't help at all with the low RPM hesitation and idle issue I was having. Another 1/4 turn on the mixture screw seemed to make no difference, which was then 1/2 turn richer than when I had torn it down to begin with. The fuel enrichment circuit would bring the RPM's up above 2000 rpm, so that wasn't helpful for comparing throttle response, which was pretty bad around 1000 to 1500 rpm.

    Since I had meticulously verified the float fuel levels off the bike, I knew I was good there, so I read a LOT of posts here on the subject. Beyond what I had already mentioned, common responses to people reporting similar problems with various years/models here were suggestions regarding the intake boots leaking, vacuum hoses attached incorrectly, obstructed carb passages/jets, pickup coil wires, pickup coil gap, ignition coils, TCI, broken mixture screw tips, missing/bad mixture screw o-ring, leaking diaphragms, weak diaphragm springs, incorrect jets, low compression (rings/valves), fuel feed/octopus, petcock position, valve adjustment, plugs, plug gap, plug wires, bad/E10 fuel, air filter, nest/obstruction for air intake, ignition advance, timing problem, incorrect jets, incompatible air filter pods, tipover switch, fusebox, bad electrical connections, use SeaFoam, ride 200 miles to unstick rings (after sitting for years), needle jet adjustment, ballast resister.

    Well, I used the techniques recommended to check for vacuum leaks and pretty much figured I had already addressed all the carburetor possibilities. Same jets, etc. had been working great in 2004. So I put a timing light on the #1, then #2 plug wires and watched it fire as someone had suggested... looking for inconsistency in the flashing. It looks like the flashing was cutting out for a fraction of a second at time, particularly when I gave it throttle at idle. Ah ha, so I must have an ignition problem, right where I'm seeing the biggest problem, when giving throttle at low RPM, and that common recommendation about checking the pickup coil wires looks spot on. So I unscrewed the screw holding the bundle of 4 wires together where they flex and pulled at each one while idling, the the engine didn't miss a beat. It was late, and I repeated that test the next day, but it kept idling away. Then I did the timing light test again, and I didn't see the cut-out this time, at least, not much, even though the idling and throttle off idle was crappy as always. OK, so now I'm back to the fuel system again.

    Since I thought it was running lean, I did a few tests where I sprayed some starting fluid in the air intake during idle while immediately giving it heavy throttle. The engine revved up instantly as I had so fondly remembered. I repeated that a few times successfully. But within seconds of stopping with the starting fluid, it was back to a hesitating weak throttle off idle.

    Although I had meticulously checked my float levels using the off-bike tube technique, I figured I would go ahead and check again... now on-bike. What the???? On the center stand in my garage, the levels in all carbs were about 9mm lower EACH than they had been from my off-bike test prior to installing the carbs. I moved the tubing up and down to verify it was settling at this significantly lower float fuel level. Then I put some boards under the front tire to get the carbs level from front to back, and that narrowed the gap a little, but it was still about 7mm lower than my off-bike measurement, meaning 7mm below spec. The carbs are warmer now, but I don't see how that would account for this. This is specifically what I had taken extra time in advance to prevent. The only thing I can figure is that I knocked my level off during my pre-mount test, but I didn't even get one carb right. That was very surprising. I'm on the right track here, aren't I?

    Well, it seems being that low in float fuel level would certainly explain idle and low-rpm issue, which I suspected was a lean fuel mixture as mentioned above. But that means I'll need to pull the carbs again.... which I did NOT want to do. And speaking of the carbs... when I reinstalled them after my first cleaning back in 2005, I didn't have that much trouble getting them back on. But this time, after having the carbs off the bike for 8 full years, they would not go back on completely. The boots must have contracted and/or stiffened over 8 years without having carbs in them.

    I read over some tips about applying lubrication and watched the youtube video about installing carbs linked from this site, but none of those were helping at all. After doing the airbox side successfully with the airbox remaining loosened, the engine side of the carbs would go into the boots a short ways, just short of the groove on the carb. I couldn't get them in any further. The boot clamps were very loose, there were no obstructions, the airbox and carbs weren't being obstructed by anything that I could see. I verified all 4 carbs were just inside each of the boots' full circumference. Trying to beat it in with the palm of my hand, rubber mallot, block of wood, the aid of lubrication over the contact area... nothing was working. I spent quite a while and broke out in a sweat multiple times in frustration. Then I thought to try using a 5 ft long 2x3 that I had lying around, and I put one end down by the foot peg and the middle area against the edge of the carbs, and I used my shoulder to put some force on the upper part of the 2x3 to get leverage, and the carbs went right in the rest of the way! I hadn't seen this tip suggested anywhere, but it sure helped in this situation, and I preferred that over beating on the carbs as shown in the video in the first place.

    About those pulsating front brakes... well, the front brake are soft compared to what they used to be, and there isn't any pulsating now. After braking, both disks feel equally warm. Anyway, after 8 years of sitting, I know the all brakes needs disassembled and a thorough cleaning along with new brake fluid. My very first internet search on the XS1100 back in the 90's was regarding sticking brakes, when I found out about the tiny hole that gets clogged up.

    Anyway, this forum has been a great resource. I got some good ideas from this site. If there's one thing frustrating about the forum, it's when you're following a thread where someone with a problem is getting various suggestions, so you're reading along anxious to see what the solution is, only to see the thread end... unknown as to what the fix was. Oh well. The suggestions and info given are valuable none the less. So thanks to all of those who have helped out.
    Last edited by HarleyRyder; 08-29-2013, 10:57 PM.
    81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
    Owner since 1995

  • #2
    That method of checking float level is supposed to be done with the bike running, that's why your level was so different. I personally only set the float level with a set of calipers to the factory spec of 23mm +/- .5 mm.

    I am sure your correct that the rubber has shrunk a little from sitting and drying out. On the Katana I had, I had to put a block of wood on the carb throat, and hit them with a metal head hammer to drive them into the boots the first couple times. After that (yes it took a few trips to the carbs to get them sorted completely) it got easier, but still required more effort than any XS11 I have worked on. Add lubricant like WD-40 or a penetrating oil to the inside of the boots where the carbs go in, maybe try heating the boots with a hair dryer or heat gun just before you put the carbs back on.

    When you were adjusting the floats to get the right level in the tubes, with it not running, did it require dropping the floats from the 23 mm position to achieve it? If so, then I believe you are spot on as to the issue with your idle, and I am certain it would show up on at high RPMs also.
    Life is what happens while your planning everything else!

    When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt.

    81 XS1100 Special - Humpty Dumpty
    80 XS1100 Special - Project Resurrection


    Previously owned
    93 GSX600F
    80 XS1100 Special - Ruby
    81 XS1100 Special
    81 CB750 C
    80 CB750 C
    78 XS750

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by HarleyRyder View Post
      If there's one thing frustrating about the forum, it's when you're following a thread where someone with a problem is getting various suggestions, so you're reading along anxious to see what the solution is, only to see the thread end... unknown as to what the fix was. Oh well. The suggestions and info given are valuable none the less. So thanks to all of those who have helped out.
      Drives me nuts as well. If a viable solution is found why not post that you accomplished that task? Or why not say "I have over stepped my bounds and I sold it, which is what so many do.
      2-79 XS1100 SF
      2-78 XS1100 E Best bike Ever
      80 XS 1100 SG Big bore kit but not fully running yet.
      Couple of more parts bikes of which 2 more will live!

      Comment


      • #4
        HarleyRyder,

        Since the bike has been put up for so long, let's consider the electrics again. I would suggest removing the seat, tank, side covers, and the headlamp. Get some good quality contact cleaner. Deoxit is a good choice. Take every electrical connection on the bike apart and clean it. So often we go chasing fuel problems that are electrical. I know you know that is true by what you have done already. Take it just a little further. You have nothing to lose.

        The carburetors can be a PITA. I futzed with mine for two or three years, maybe longer. Finally, they are dialed in. I touch the button and VROOM! It took taking the time to make everything right, and replacing whatever parts were faulty. Stay with it.

        Your brakes may be fine if you just replace the fluid. In with the new, out with the old. Your brake lines are expired, but that's another story. If you have visited here often, you already know what needs to be done. You could go after the rotors with a paint stripping wheel on your electric drill motor. Or, you could use 100 grit garnet paper. That will likely get rid of any pulsing brake.
        Marty (in Mississippi)
        XS1100SG
        XS650SK
        XS650SH
        XS650G
        XS6502F
        XS650E

        Comment


        • #5
          Another thing to consider is a weak spark at low rpms. Especially if you still have to old stock ignition coils, wires, and plug caps.
          Nathan
          KD9ARL

          μολὼν λαβέ

          1978 XS1100E
          K&N Filter
          #45 pilot Jet, #137.5 Main Jet
          OEM Exhaust
          ATK Fork Brace
          LED Dash lights
          Ammeter, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, and Volt Meters

          Green Monster Coils
          SS Brake Lines
          Vision 550 Auto Tensioner

          In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing.

          Theodore Roosevelt

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DGXSER View Post
            That method of checking float level is supposed to be done with the bike running, that's why your level was so different. I personally only set the float level with a set of calipers to the factory spec of 23mm +/- .5 mm.
            I measured as you said with the bike running, but then I checked the Yamaha service manual, and it says to stop the engine after a few minutes of run and that the procedure is necessary to obtain the correct fuel level. So, I think I need to go back and measure again with the engine stopped. The results were not as far off on the last measurement... within 1 to 3mm of where it should be.

            The 23.5mm +/- .5mm spec you gave is not listed as as spec for the SH in the Yamaha service manual or my Clymer manual. Instead, it says, "3mm +/- 1mm below from the carburetor mixing chamber body edge." So, I didn't use the 23.5mm spec for my SH

            Add lubricant like WD-40 or a penetrating oil to the inside of the boots where the carbs go in, maybe try heating the boots with a hair dryer or heat gun just before you put the carbs back on.
            I had tried the lubricant as mentioned above, but not the hair dryer. Fortunately, the 2x3 worked nicely, so I'm not worried about the next time. That first time after 8 years of being off the bike was probably the worst of it.

            When you were adjusting the floats to get the right level in the tubes, with it not running, did it require dropping the floats from the 23 mm position to achieve it?
            I didn't set my floats to 23.5mm since I have an SH, but I do remember the floats were sitting up higher than 23.5mm from the gasket surface (with carbs upside down.) I don't recall the specifics since the SH didn't have a spec for that measurement.

            If so, then I believe you are spot on as to the issue with your idle, and I am certain it would show up on at high RPMs also.
            I didn't notice anything unusual at higher RPMs.

            Now having said all that, I noticed that you have an 81 XS1100 Special listed among bikes you own/owned. So you're using the 23.5mm spec on that one?
            81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
            Owner since 1995

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey Harley,

              The 23 mm float height spec comes from the 80 model year, which was changed from the 78-79 series carbs. In 81 Yamaha got fancier with using the friggin looped fuel hose trick, but most of us just use the 80 spec since it's the same carbs as the 80's even though it's an 81.

              T.C.
              T. C. Gresham
              81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
              79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
              History shows again and again,
              How nature points out the folly of men!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jetmechmarty View Post
                So often we go chasing fuel problems that are electrical.
                But like I mentioned in my first post, when I sprayed some starting fluid in the air intake just before giving it heavy throttle at idle, it throttled up without hesitation. Since the extra "fuel" made the engine respond so much better, I assumed this meant I had a fuel system issue. I had repeated that test a few times before my original test, and then I repeated that test just today a few times with the same results. Wouldn't this be indicative of a fuel system issue.

                Having said that, I do plan to go over the electrical connections when I get some contact cleaner.
                81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
                Owner since 1995

                Comment


                • #9
                  Your starting fluid throttle test seems to confirm the too LEAN condition, hence poor throttle response. A float level of 25+mm is too high=too lean.
                  The 81 carbs jets both pilot and main feed directly off of the fuel in the bowl, vs. the earlier carbs that fed both thru the deeper reaching main jet tower.

                  Don't bother with the bowl clear tube, just set them to 23 mm and you'll probably have your quick throttle response back again!

                  T.C.
                  T. C. Gresham
                  81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                  79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                  History shows again and again,
                  How nature points out the folly of men!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TopCatGr58 View Post
                    Your starting fluid throttle test seems to confirm the too LEAN condition, hence poor throttle response. A float level of 25+mm is too high=too lean.
                    The 81 carbs jets both pilot and main feed directly off of the fuel in the bowl, vs. the earlier carbs that fed both thru the deeper reaching main jet tower.

                    Don't bother with the bowl clear tube, just set them to 23 mm and you'll probably have your quick throttle response back again!

                    T.C.
                    Thanks, T.C. Since I'll need to take the carbs off anyway, I'll go ahead and set them using the 23mm spec (I mistyped in my previous post when I put 23.5 vs. 23 +/- .5.)
                    Last edited by HarleyRyder; 09-03-2013, 09:03 PM.
                    81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
                    Owner since 1995

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just a thought and suggestion. But I'm thinking have you checked to make sure it's running on all cylinders. IE check each header tube to make sure they are getting hot? Use a IR thermometer or a spray bottle with water. Cause you could be lean and a small amount of fuel getting thru and have a warm header tube on that cylinder. And when you spray it picks up. Cause I ran into that with a few bikes that I've worked on. JAT! Good Luck!
                      Chris

                      79 XS1100 Standard aka: Mutt
                      87 Honda TRX350D 4X4: Old Blue!
                      93 NewYorker Salon: Sleeper...
                      71 RoadRunner 440 Magnum: Mean Green!
                      69 Charger 440 Magnum: Pleasure Ride!

                      Gimme Fuel Gimme Fire!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        carb install tip

                        When reinstalling the carbs, I use a rubber lube on the manifolds. ArmorAll would do it just fine. They'll pop right in.
                        Marty (in Mississippi)
                        XS1100SG
                        XS650SK
                        XS650SH
                        XS650G
                        XS6502F
                        XS650E

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hey Harley,

                          I have owned two SH and an SG, and worked on several of the 80-81 models for fellow members. I always set the floats to 23 mm +/- .5 mm spec on 80 or 81 model carbs.

                          I did check the fuel level (non running) on my first SH, once...only once. That was such a cluster fudge that I never did it again. Honestly, you would need to be certain the bike is level side to side, front to back, for it to have meaning. And the levels were all within tolerance as set with the 23 +/- method anyway.

                          So yes, I now just set them at 23 +/- .5 mm, making sure both sides of the float are the same, and all four are very close to identical. Button up the carbs, pop them in place, synch and tune. Never saw the need to try that hose thing again.

                          And BTW, on that Katana, I had the carbs off three or four times getting at different areas of the bike and or engine, as well as cleaning. Every time was just as hard to get them back in as the first.
                          Life is what happens while your planning everything else!

                          When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt.

                          81 XS1100 Special - Humpty Dumpty
                          80 XS1100 Special - Project Resurrection


                          Previously owned
                          93 GSX600F
                          80 XS1100 Special - Ruby
                          81 XS1100 Special
                          81 CB750 C
                          80 CB750 C
                          78 XS750

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ccogswel View Post
                            Just a thought and suggestion. But I'm thinking have you checked to make sure it's running on all cylinders.
                            Good question. That's actually the problem I ran into 8 years ago prior to my first carburetor cleaning which resolved the issue only to lead to the leaking issue. This time around, I used an IR thermometer on each of the 4pipes from initial warm-up and even after it's been idling for a while, on more than one occassion now, and everything looks normal in that regard.

                            I'm planning to work on the bike this evening.
                            Last edited by HarleyRyder; 09-04-2013, 09:40 AM.
                            81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
                            Owner since 1995

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DGXSER View Post
                              That was such a cluster fudge that I never did it again. Honestly, you would need to be certain the bike is level side to side, front to back, for it to have meaning.
                              I have to agree on that. I spent a while leveling the bike, but I still didn't trust the results I had gotten so far. So yeah, back to the traditional method.

                              BTW, my idle mixture screws were 3 1/4 turns out with silicone over the holes when I first disassembled them, but at 3 or 3 1/2 didn't help with this issue after everything was back together, so I hope it's just the float level.

                              And BTW, on that Katana, I had the carbs off three or four times getting at different areas of the bike and or engine, as well as cleaning. Every time was just as hard to get them back in as the first.
                              As bad as it was last time after the carbs were off the bike for 8 years, I'm not sweating remounting the carbs this time, because now I know I have the 2x3 option if they don't go in easier this time. After not making any progress with lubrication, I then used the 2x3 for leverage last time to push each side in, they went in within seconds on each side. If only I had tried that sooner!
                              Last edited by HarleyRyder; 09-04-2013, 10:50 AM.
                              81 SH XS1100 Special - All stock
                              Owner since 1995

                              Comment

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