Clutch sticking in disengaged position

[Sol]

Hi all,
Over Easter I had a gremlin visit, he must have been subbing for the bunny. When the clutch is in use, such as when sitting at a light in 1st, I will hear a click and the clutch arm will not re-engage. I can take a tool and give it a stiff push and it will snap back to normal, till next time. I did the usual adjustments to the arm hoping to massage it away and no luck. Everything else is fine, shifting fine, no slip at WOT, just the clutch is lodging its self open when in use randomly. I looked at my Clymer's & searched out some info such as TK's extra steel plate thread. Which is useful for disassembly, but unless I find an obviously broken component I don't know what to look for as to the cause of the problem. Any one have some thoughts as to what to suspect or inspect?
She's a grumpy & vain 1980 MNS

Thanks guys.

[skids]

Detent balls out of place? (Just taking a stab at it)

[DGXSER]

I have found that the engagement system (ball bearing set up in the cover) can get out of place when your installing the clutch cover. It typically makes it tough to get the cover to go into place if it happens.

If you have removed the retaining nut and made sure the lever arm is properly positioned over the oval shaped bolt, and you have properly adjusted the clutch at the engine side, then I would try pulling the cover and inspecting that mechanism.

If it helps, you can put the bike on the side stand and pull the clutch cover without draining the engine oil.

[WMarshy]

Dont overlook the cable as a possibility. Disconnect it from under the clutch civer and check for binding. Otherwise, I agree with the others.

[skids]

I have found that the engagement system (ball bearing set up in the cover) can get out of place when your installing the clutch cover. It typically makes it tough to get the cover to go into place if it happens.

If you have removed the retaining nut and made sure the lever arm is properly positioned over the oval shaped bolt, and you have properly adjusted the clutch at the engine side, then I would try pulling the cover and inspecting that mechanism.

If it helps, you can put the bike on the side stand and pull the clutch cover without draining the engine oil.

Yeah, that is what I was taking a stab at.

[Sol]

Thanks for the suggestions

Check, the cable is not the culprit.
Check, the arm is seated properly.
Check, the adjustment screw (throw out rod) has been set properly.

So then, I am pull the cover per
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9481
and take a look around, particularly at the bearing that is at the star plate. That is the retaining bearing you fellows are referring to correct?
I don't plan on jamming the wheel in place as I hope I will not have to go beyond the main clutch hub nut. I just hope something is obviously wrong! I would hate to get in there, not have a clue, reassemble, test & repeat...
I may have to wait for this weekend to get into it as I don't have much daylight left after work.

Thanks for the interest, keep the ideas coming!

[650mark]

sticky clutch

+1 what marshy said. I just installed a brand new clutch cable on my '80 special and the difference in clutch operation and shifting is quite noticeable. the original cable (13,000 miles) turned out to have a small kink in it where it goes under the gastank. much much smoother now. fwiw, all 4 of my xs650's and my sr500 all improved the same way with new clutch cables. a real easy and cheap fix for sure before you start tearing things apart. good luck

[Sol]

Thanks

I hear you on the cable, but remove the cable & the problem remains.

[Rasputin]

Hi all,
When the clutch is in use, such as when sitting at a light in 1st, I will hear a click and the clutch arm will not re-engage. I can take a tool and give it a stiff push and it will snap back to normal, till next time.
She's a grumpy & vain 1980 MNS

Thanks guys.

Possibly a wee bit more info or a slightly better description of what you are experiencing will help. I myself have had clutch cable issues that would cause this. If you disconnect both ends of the cable and there is any resistance at all that could be a problem.
I would for sure check the detent balls in the clutch and it is not nearly as daunting as one may think.
The only other thing that comes to mind is the washer in the clutch that may be installed backwards, but I doubt that would be it.

[Sol]

Thanks, I'll try for a better description

Thanks, I'll try for a better description:

After removing the clutch cover on the right hand side of the motor (right hand side when sitting on bike in riding position) you can see the cable enter and attach to the clutch lever arm. The lever arm in turn is attached to the throw out rod and held in place by a nut. Now the lever arm and throw our rod will click and remain rotated in the counter clock wise position, and the clutch won't return. Remove the cable and it stays stuck. pull cable in and out feeling for resistance, and its smooth and easy. Push the lever arm down with some force and it will return and work as normal for a while. Clutch spring pressure is a little too much to test the lever arm without the cable but the cable does not seem to be binding. Adjustment of the throw out rod and cable does not prevent the problem from re-occurring. The thing might work normally just long enough to get my hopes up, think its fixed and take it for a test ride. Or it might happen again on the next pull. So I've taken it as far as I can on the external stuff I think.

The problem is, its not a big problem, so I don't know if I will know it when I see it. Also I don't think working the clutch to try to re-create the problem while I'm watching will work.

re-reading the earlier suggestions, I think I miss-identified the bearing that was mentioned. You all are talking about the one that looks like a triangular plate with a ball at each lobe, #24 per the bike bandit diagram linked right?

Sorry about the word count

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Sol,

Word count? Who's counting? You should see some of my posts!

I meant to post these photos some time ago, finally remembered to get them into my photobucket account. Here's what you'll see when you take the clutch cover off.

This first one shows the INSIDE of the clutch cover with the throwout mechanism removed...you can see the oval shaped dents for the 3 bearings, along with the other photo of the actual 3 bearings in their cage.. and the matching 3 dents in the throwout plate. Surprisingly they are not symmetrical...evenly spaced so you can NOT put it back together the wrong way, they will only fit together 1 way PROPERLY and snugly.



This next image is the actual throwout plate and center pin that fits into the clutch star plate throwout BEARING.



This last one just shows the throwout plate and the star plate and how they fit together INSIDE The clutch cover.



Now, one thing you didn't mention in your description of your clutch parts under the adjustment plate is that there should be a SPRING connected to the end of the clutch lever arm and wraps around a small pin in the clutch cover case. That spring is what's supposed to help make the lever RETURN when you release the clutch lever at the handlebar. IF you do not have that Expansion Spring, that may be part of your problem??

The other part is gummed up grease in the throwout mechanism?

Here's a photo of the lever and SPRING!!


HTH!? T.C.

[skids]

You all are talking about the one that looks like a triangular plate with a ball at each lobe, #24 per the bike bandit diagram linked right?

Sorry about the word count

That is the ballbearing set, yes. My understanding is that it must be placed properly or it will not work right. BUT I never did it wrong, so I can't say if it could cause the issues you are having... That is the thing that rotates and depresses the clutch to open the plates.

[Sol]

Awsome guys!

Those pictures are things of beauty T.C., thanks for the assist!
Yep, the return spring is in place, and when removed does not seem to be stretched out (the coils return to touching each other when not under tension).

Now I have a much better idea of what to expect in there. It seems as if the balls are getting stuck in the pockets rather then returning. If for example a high or low spot formed on the ramp into a pocket or on the ball then the ball could pop over the lip of the deformed spot and lodge.

Thanks to each of your help I now I have a clue what to look for!
Now I just have to get through moto withdrawal till the weekend to get in there.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Sol,

Glad to be of some help. Another thing the Manual speaks of is the possibility of notches getting worn in the slots that the frictions ride/slide in inside the clutch basket. Here's a photo of the basket open and freshly oiled frictions and steels getting aligned.



These notches/burrs will make the slots rough and can cause the frictions to not slide back together under spring pressure once they have been separated by actuating the clutch lever and then releasing. You'll be able to see the friction plate tabs and slots WITHOUT having to take the star plate or basket off/apart.....so you can check for burrs and notches. IF found, then you'll want to take the clutch basket off and file the frictions tabs and the basket slots so that they are smooth/flat.

Here's the link to the Extra friction plate tip I made several years ago...BEFORE discovering the Barnett Springs...which probably would have solved my slipping problem just as well as adding the extra steel plate. SO...now we don't necessarily recommend the extra plate, just get good quality barnett springs, along with ensuring that the frictions are at the upper edge of the wear limit/spec....3.00 mm thick vs. the 2.8 minimum. But we leave the tip up for good illustration of the clutch tear down and reassembly process anyways!

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9481

T.C.

[Sol]

Took a look

Thanks all that was instructive & educational. I found a clue: the throwout bearing has ball tracks (wear mark) for the balls walking right out of the "pocket ramps" and out onto the flat of the bearing surface for ~1/2". Add a little resistance and that might cause the problem I'm seeing. Just a theory, that may also be normal. As near as I can tell everything else was fine. some friction place crud had gotten lodged in the throw out rod seating point on the star plate bearing. I got it all back together and now the cable seems to be too short by ~1/2". Go figure. Theory: something was out of place for some time, everything still functioned but was starting from an advanced position, and so total travel when in use was also beyond the normal. Add some time, resistance and reluctance and it stops returning. Perhaps... it was all going together and functioning fine till now with the cable as is for the few years I have had it, now it wants a longer cable. Theory B: I failed to find the problem and miss-assembled it. I can get the cable redone later this week...

Thanks for the help, I have no fear of the clutch any more.