Check out my XS1100 Chain Drive

[Toolmaker Tim]

Programming

Is that a computer generated NC program or a conversational program? If it's computer generated program what software did you use? Inside of the machine looks like the Hurco BMC-30 I use to run. Nice work on the machining. If I am understanding what I'm seeing here correctly, you made an adapter plate for a middle drive to mock up your finished part, cut it in wax, then cut your finished piece with you real stock.

[mrbisbob]

It's computer generated with Mastercam X4 and the machine is a Haas VF2. Thank you, I started learning about a year ago. Yes I cut several mockups in plastic including a plate version that was doweled and bolted to a modified OEM cast middle drive housing as proofs of concept. I was doing it all in 2D with no 3D modeling software so there were a LOT of details (multiple layers) to keep straight as I am simultaneously learning all the bells and whistles in Mastercam. I've only scratched the surface of it's functionality.

[Toolmaker Tim]

CNC Stuff

Haas are great machines. The one's I've been around are screaming fast compared to the Hurcos the Journeymen get to play with. I may be incorrect, but the Haas seem to be tied to computer software generated programs. Nothing wrong with that, it just more precise than a conversational program is, so it needs the software generated programs. The Hurco BMC30 I ran used both and I did a ton of 3-D milling for injection molds with it. All were Surfcam generated programs. A conversational program set up would have been an easier way to mill up your chaindrive adapter, but you did an outstanding job with the 2-D software. Where I am now we use Solidworks and their Cad-Cam package for milling. I am running the wire EDM and the CNC EDM's now so I don't get to play with the mills a lot Believe it or not the Fanuc wire EDM I run now uses a Bobcad program to generate the program and I have to go in and manually change the G-coding to do what I want. I have a dead motor in the mancave and have almost pulled the middle drive to do what you have done, but wasn't ambious enough i guess. Again, a very nicely done job.

[mrbisbob]

Thank you! What kind of project were you going to make your XS11 chain drive? I still have the modified plate conversion parts if your interested. It would only allow a 13 tth sprocket unless you modified the cases like I did. Maybe we could make a deal.



Always looking for ways to get funds to advance my project. Are you going to be able to make it to the Fall XS11 get together here in NC?

[Toolmaker Tim]

Parts

No, I think I will take a pass on the parts. It was something I had thought about, but I don't have a desire to follow through on. Right now I'm still trying to sort out my wiring problems and brake issues on the Special. The F has been setting there for over a year and I have done very little to it. I was even thinking of selling everything and trying something different. Your project looks great, keep showing us the pictures. Setting up an entire motor in a mill was wild, I know how heavy those things are!

[LoHo]

Oh sure, chain drive machining...but can you make it a water-cooled engine? That's the brass ring in XSive land.

Then we'll add two more wheels and some protection for the driver/rider, and we can call it a Fiat.

[Rooster]

Is that a cuban cause it looks like a cuban? (the cigar)

[Calkins]

mrbisbob, any progress?

Also, have you thought anymore about machining more conversions? I just received a pair of 11s, and plan to build a drag bike.

[JCW]

I'd love to pick his brain on porting the head as well.

I know there's not much to be had, but just wanted to know what % of valve diameter he ported the throat. If it's 90%, there's a fair amount to be removed. And did he smooth the combustion chamber ridges slightly. I've never heard that sharp edges are ever good in a combustion chamber.

[IanDMacDonald]

JCW- As mentioned before in other posts, Dan Hodges on here has done a lot of performance tuning to these engines. Contact him regarding any questions you have. I have a mildly ported & polished head. Not much improvement I feel over a stock engine. I see more performance increase from the timing adjustments made.

[SoyBoySigh]

Now THIS thing is truly AWESOME. I'd love to hear more about the finished bike. I'd love to see it out there on the Bol D'Or Classic, running against it's contemporaries. And I'd love to see a break-down of the net performance gains, in terms of weight lost and rear-wheel-horse-power transfer, un-sprung mass for better suspension compliance, etc etc. Gotta be HUGE improvements from this modification. Would be interesting to see what all needs to be done inside the engine etc, to net the same changes in rear-wheel-horsepower....

Nice job with the lightening cuts, the milled-out hollows. Somehow still looks like an OEM component. Or at least a factory original purpose-built special racer.

I should think it's well worth a small-batch serial production of that conversion kit, that there have to be even more XS owners eager to snap these parts up. Perhaps even more than was originally the case, when the bike was relatively new & competitive?

One might even do quite well, to set up a cottage industry offering shaft-conversion kits for ALL of the most obvious donor models. Anything with a transverse crank-shaft seems IMHO to be an obvious case. The XS11 & 850 of course, perhaps some of the Virago models? (Sure, there are chain-drive models but think of the Cafe Racer kids snapping up Virago donor bikes - what might they do with the 1100 model?) And then of course the Suzuki & Kawasaki DOHC-4 shafty models, the Honda V-Four Sabre & Magna, both of which came out alongside alternative models of chain-drive form BUT - still a lot of un-tapped potential out there. And then of course the MV Agusta - if there are any left out there without the Magni kit already installed then I suppose one could offer it, too.

I wonder whether any of these models would still require the out-rigger bearing etc, if they were to use a belt & pulley rather than a conventional chain - Well, yeah probably even more-so. But at least some models could leave the existing out-put shaft in place, right? Being that you'd be looking at a custom shaft adapter collet for the belt-pulley anyhow. It's just the greater simplicity, of not splitting the cases is all. I'm thinking specifically of the Honda CB900C & CB1000C. Perhaps there are others.

Gotta wonder about the models with longitudinal crank-shafts as well. I can recall one or two chain-drive GUZZI racers. Perhaps the idea would catch on with them? Tough to say....

Right now, I am more of a Honda nut - in fact this thread caught my eye while I was searching for CB1100R bodywork. I'm doing something of a CB1100R analogue of sorts myself, the "CB900K0 Bol Bomber" is an '82 CB900F based 'homage' to the '65 CB450K0 Black Bomber. Which of course requires that the alloy tank be polished up all "Toaster-tank" style, AND a wire-spoke conversion & some interesting hubs & brakes of course.

As does the "KZ440LOL" (for my teenage Ex-Daughter), a de-cruiser-ization of the KZ440LTD with all-NOS belt-drive, Suzuki's dinky lil' 4LS drum squeezed into 3.00x16" Borrani rims front & rear for Maxi-Scooter spec low-profile Radial tires in 110/70-16 & 140/70-16 - All tolled up it'll be hard to tell it was an 'LTD in the first place.

They're both coming along nicely, if a bit SLOW to completion due to some small obstacles here & there.

But here's the thing - Due to the long-running eBay hunt for particular vintage marque NOS & lightly used rims, being unable to pass over any bargains - I've got all of these spare slash left-over alloy wire-spoke rims in some really juicy sizes, and drilled for larger drum-sized rear hubs as well.

For instance, a 4.25x18" Akront drilled for the Honda GL1000/CB750K/CB750F1 40-spoke rear hubs. Which is getting replaced by an identical rim which is drilled for the Harley rear hub, perfect for a Honda FRONT hub with a bolt-up cush etc. To shave weight for the chain-drive rear wheel on the "Bol Bomber" - what with the Honda CB750F1 rear hub weighing more than the aforementioned Suzuki 4LS - probably double, when all components of each are added up!

That's the main rim which prompts the soon following train-of-thought. Along with several other sizes with the same drilling pattern, such as 3.50x18" Super-Akront, 3.50x16" Super-Akront, 3.00x16" Borrani, 3.00x18" Morad shouldered/valanced, 4.25x17" & 5.00x17" 40-spoke new-production style Super-Moto type alloy rims (which aren't drilled the same way but I plan to re-drill 'em IF needed for the shaft type rear hubs, or otherwise use 'em on a compact light-weight chain-drive hub, blah-blah-blah....)

Now, my POINT here - is that the impulse to somehow USE these awesome rear rims, in such a way as the broader spoke-drilling-pattern is actually useful - has got me fixated on the idea of working on a SHAFT-DRIVE bike next time 'round. Either a shaft rear hub, or a rear drum conversion (front AND rear drum conversion) - or ideally BOTH shaft-drive and a rear drum, on say a mid-late '80s model with a shaft rear end & a big heavy "pumpkin" over-sized cast-wheel "hub" or core, & a heavy over-sized & superfluous rear disc? What better use could there BE, for a rim drilled for such a large rear hub?

SO - the models which seem to have the most potential, IMHO - for a de-cruiser-ization, AND a shaft-to-BELT final-drive conversion:

Would be the tube-framed Honda VF series - the Magna and Sabre. Ideally the V65 aka VF1100C Magna (twin-shock but cruiser bodywork & small rear wheel) & VF1100S Sabre (mono-shock but better sport-bike type bodywork & taller rear wheel etc) Perhaps a combination of BOTH?

I picture it as an homage to the '60s Czechoslovakian G.P. racer, the CZ Type 860. What with the V-four, the tube frame, and of course the WIRE-SPOKE conversion, ideally a big fake drum brake up front, like a wire-spoke conversion of the GL1500 Goldwing or at least PC800 Pacific Coast front brakes - Did I mention that?

Does this all sound very far-fetched?

Well, there's a really great method for universal wire-spoke conversion, for any & all models any & all wheel types, coming from a Honda DOHC-4 CB900C Custom (same rear end as GL1100 Goldwing) The creation of a guy going by the handle "6pkrunner" over on the www.cb750c.com forum, which could work on ANY sort of wheel, once you wrap your head around it:

Not talking about the bolt-up flange-plate kits which are so popular with Honda Comstar wheels these days. Quite the contrary. I suppose there's SOME advantage, in that the Honda Comstar hubs and Drum brakes are all made in the same nominal diameter to suit the 180mm drum hubs, but it should apply to all sorts of other huge heavy rear hubs, & shaft-drive come to mind first & foremost.

The existing hub or wheel is cut down & spun on a lathe to form a simple cylinder core. Meanwhile a wire-spoke drum hub is hollowed out from side-to-side. And the two are welded together. With the Honda Comstar hubs and wire-spoke hubs, there are obvious points at which the center-line could be marked out & even drilled & tapped for locating pins etc.

It's reminiscent of the Kosman Industries' "Weld-Widened" RIMS, only it's a lot less critical that the welds be aligned or even perfectly concentric - the SPOKES themselves will correct any faults created by a poor match-up. Setting the center-line of the cast wheel's hub to the center point of the chosen drum hub should simplify the selection of a spoke set, such that one could use the off-the-shelf sets made for that given drum etc.

Sure would be nice if somebody would set up a cottage industry doing wheel conversions such as this. Just about anybody could use 'em - The retention of OEM chain-line measurements, axle spacers, and original brake components makes for the simplest of all wheel conversions, wire-spoke or otherwise.

AH, but then again if one could do the shaft-to-chain or shaft-to-BELT conversions, this obviates the requirement for the odd-ball rear hub altogether. Obviously the more expensive option, but when you think of everything which falls into place WITH this conversion, it's well worth it!

Either way - I love this project. Inspirational stuff. I'd love to think that somewhere down the line, when I get my hands on that Magna/Sabre donor bike, that YOU'LL still have an interest in shaft-to-chain conversions? I'm so eager to try this one out, I'd like to just ditch what I'm working on and jump straight into it! Ha-ha.

I don't think it's been DONE is the point. Sure, there are already some chain-drive Honda V-4 models. But the tubular steel frame and the canted-forward "crotch" angle of the V-4 being more like a Ducati "L-twin" engine than the other Honda VF-series, it's seems ideal for a pseudo-replica of the CZ Type 860 - With the wire-spoke conversion and retro-fried surface treatments, I'd like to think of it as a "CZ860K0 Sand-Cast" - If you're any sort of Honda buff, you'd be diggin' it too!

Or, if I can't find a decent V65 donor-bike kicking around, I'd at least like to try the weld-up hub method for a wire-spoke conversion on say, a GL1200 Gold Wing based replica of the "DLF-1000" '75 'Wing Endurance Racer. Easier to convert that rear hub maybe even an extended swinger, than to beef up the engine & chassis of the GL1000 to GL1200 standard.

(((Well, the shaft-driven rear end might present limitations on the size of rear wheel & tire - hence the full range of sizes I'm keeping in mind for this one - ideally tall, fat 18"/18" rims like the original "DLF-1000" - But also keeping standard sizes for GL1100 & GL1200 in mind, just in case the swing-arm is too tight or the shaft too short. Both, even......)))

Ah, but a belt-driven V65 - a tube-framed retro-fried Interceptor, probably an easier conversion than a big-bore job on a VF1000F/VF1000R - It might even shave some weight off from either of those models. With the wire-spoke conversion and tubular steel frame, it could keep something of the classic Honda vibes AND a highly competitive motor, were it a VF750S then a 1982 vintage no less. Rather than the modernized suspension & running gear, CNC Billet ****e we keep seeing bedazzled all over the '70s classics - wouldn't it be nice to see some of that next generation of more modern bikes, of that era when things first began to get FUGLY in earnest, "retro-fried" with some key aesthetic treatments from the '60s-'70s Endurance era - an outright REVERSAL of that process we've been seeing on the custom bike builds of the last 10-15yrs or more? Of course, I mean for the specifications to be on par or better than stock. It's simply the aesthetics, the angular bodywork, the mag wheels the blacked-out engines & total lack of polish, the Battlestar Galactica inspired sci-fi futurism etc - THAT'S where they screwed up. That, and putting shaft-drive on bikes for nothing more than convenience's sake, as a "technological innovation" in a sense neutering the true sporting potential.

Well, of course the XS11 still competed in Endurance events WITH the shaft in place. But one has to wonder what might have been without it, if perhaps - Yamaha might have offered two versions as was the case with several competitor's big-bore DOHC-4 models. A late '70s FJ1100 I suppose is what I'm getting at. Perhaps the wire-spoke conversion of IT instead? Well then there's still the integral fairing brace, meaning the FJ could never be truly "NEKKID" ... I think I could live with that! Ha-ha. It's a beautiful visualization - in MY mind at least. Still - much as that's a real possibility, the shaft elimination thing is compelling. It's the thought of setting all of those horses FREE....

With all of the other once spectacular modifications to classic Superbikes becoming more commonplace, blase even - the fork swaps being a mouse-click away via the All Balls Racing drop-down menu, how eBay has made all of us into masters of the junk-yard scavenger hunt - Maybe THIS will be the last gasp for a generation in love with Classic '70s-'80s Superbikes? If only - A shaft-drive conversion kit for a good half dozen or so models, perhaps some of 'em never having been done before? And this "weld-up hub" wire-spoke conversion thing? Talk about removing all obstacles, man. Wild hairy Endurance racers to be rendered from the likes of Honda's MAGNA. Or the Suzuki Madura. The Yamaha XVZ1300 Venture Royale rendered out of the guise of a GL1200 Goldwing analogue, and stripped down with wire-spokes it becomes the analogue of the '75 GL1000 Goldwing NEKKID touring bike instead. From here, it's the same raw template which the 'Wing itself once was, and rather than the V-MAX "muscle cruiser" we'd see the same awesome powerplant in something more of an upright "standard" analogous to the XS11, a V4 XS13 of a sort - Now THIS would be a worthy platform for these perverse types of modifications. Analogous to my big ideas for the Honda V-4 shaft elimination. Same key features - the big-bore V-4 engine in a more vintage style tubular-steel frame, the more classic "upright" stance, the wire-spoke wheel-swap, thicker beefier than period-correct but still retro looking Anti-dive forks - the XVZ was another model which, like the GL1200, had the aftermarket brake shrouds - which resemble a 4LS drum hub if it weren't for the cast wheels between 'em. So just as I've been planning for the GL1500 shrouded front brake, a wire-spoke conversion for a fake drum front hub - based on those same XVZ1200 rotor shrouds etc. This could give the bike a TRULY "retro-fried" appearance. Of course it's a complete fiction, but one could imagine these enormous & powerful Japanese power-plants at the heart of some type of '50s-'60s G.P. racer, analogous to the Gilera / MV Agusta DOHC-4, scaled up considerably so you needn't be a petite professional Jockey to enjoy the thing. I mean, we've certainly seen the XS11 7 KZ1000, GS1000, CB1100F etc - all redone in the guise of the ZRX1200 or GSX1300. Well then what's wrong with winding the clock around in the OTHER direction? With the truly free & open wheel-swap options that either the shaft elimination OR the weld-up hub methods allow - perhaps both even - Past this point, everything else is just some fiberglass & a bit of paint....

-Sigh.