Legal title

[James England]

Can someone please explain this 'title' thang? I read it regularly here on the forum re US bikes. I gather that it's an official document regarding the bike..

Here in the UK, we have a system of V5 registration documents. This records the vehicle registration number (which any vehicle has for life), engine and frame number, BHP and the name and address of the registered keeper, who is responsible for road tax, speeding fines, misuse of the vehicle. However as it says on the V5 itsdlf, the registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner. In fact, there is no document that says who the legal owner is. Usually the register keeper is the owner but sometimes not.

On sale of the vehicle, the V5 is completed with the name etc of the new keeper and it's sent off to a central computer place which records the change and then issues a new document and sends it to the new keeper. You can buy a vehicle with no V5 and, provided it's not stolen, you can apply for a new V5, using the vehicle re. number. It's not particularly difficult to buy a bike with no papers, no reg. number and then go and register it yourself, when it's issued with an age-related reg. number appropriate to the age of the bike (our reg. numbers show the age).

So, in the USA, I see some states don't need a title? Some do? Some, you can't ever use a vehicle if it doesn't have one? How's it all work?

[ManagerMike]

Indeed it is a legal document required in most states that provides proof of ownership, and is required for all street legal vehicles, watercraft,and many off road vehicles that can be used on trails with an "off road" licence, such as snowmobiles. Without one, the vehicle cannot be licenced. A lost title can be re-issued (for a fee) upon inspection by a police officer and a VIN search that shows it is not reported as stolen.
This is all well and good, but I however believe the real reason for a title has more to do with revenue then preventing theft or fraud. Each instance of ownership transfer requires the title be transferred (again for a fee), the selling price must be recorded on the title by the seller, and sales tax is charged to the buyer at the time of title transfer. At least that's how it works here in Michigan.
Thats right, state sales tax charged every time ownership changes.

[BA80]

It can become complicated and difficult in SOME states (because laws vary from state to state) if the vehicle hasn't got the proper paperwork to accompany it and it always costs.

[jetmechmarty]

James,

Every state has a different law regarding titles. It is a "proof of ownership" document. In many states it is impossible to register a vehicle for the street without this document. In other words, no title, you may not have a license plate. Here in Georgia I do not require a title on any vehicle built before 1986. Also, I do not need one for a trailer. 50 states = 50 different sets of laws.

[DGXSER]

Like Mike stated, in most states, all I have ever lived in, the "title" is the legal proof of ownership. You get it when you purchase the vehicle. If you sell it, you have to sign that title over to the new owner. The new owner then takes it to the Department of Motor Vehicles for their location and they issue them a title in their name. After you first register the vehicle, until you go to sell the vehicle, the title sits in a file.

In most states, you MUST have the title in order to register the vehicle, that registration gets renewed annually (for a fee) and provides you the right to drive/operate the vehicle on public roads and or waterways. Each year you renew that registration, but then you only need your money pretty much.

What tends to happen to these old bikes is someone decides it ain't worth taking when they move, and the bike stays but the title is gone. Maybe the person dies, who knows. Anyway, the titled IS the legal owner. What if someone decided they think my XS11 would fetch them a nice price and took it? Well, with no title they could use it till the current registration runs out.

I recently took an interest in a Virago for sale locally with no title. I asked about the title, he told me the PO did not have one to give him. I asked the owner to send me the VIN so I could check it with LEO for stolen list. He told me he would not give me the VIN, because then I could file for a new title and come take the bike from him. IF I got a title, that would be true. According to law, I would own it and he would have to give it to me. That being said, I also checked with a different DMV department, they told me I can apply for a new title. I send them the information on the bike, they send me a letter confirming it is not listed stolen and such. I then file that letter from them with an application to the court system to get a new title. The local judge reviews the application and I hope he likes my hair color and such and decides to give me one. I described my situation and the DMV person advised my chances were very slim because I would be buying the bike full well knowing it had no title, the judge ussually does not approve of that.

Now, if you have the time and perhaps funding, I am sure you can investigate the last titled owner of the vehicle in question. Find them, and pay them to have a new title printed. Yes, if you lose that document, you simply go to your DMV and pay $20 or so for them to print you a new one, which they do while you wait. Now, of course, the iffy bit is what will the "current owner" decide he wants in order to sign this title over to you. After all, now he owns something he knows is of value to you.

[Schming]

The title, proof of ownership, is explained above as with the registration which is proof of finacial responsibility which translates to proof of proper insurance needed first to obtain a license plate.

[joceiphus]

Soooooo, If you're just the keeper, then who owns the bike?
Your king?

[BA80]

Soooooo, If you're just the keeper, then who owns the bike?
Your king?

It's a "Queen" at this time Joe.

[joceiphus]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[ViperRon]

Different states different laws

Here in Virginia they have an abandoned vehicle law also. Basically if you have possession of a vehicle for more than 30 days on your property you can go to the DMV and file an abandoned vehicle form. If the vehicle is not stolen then you being in possession of the vehicle are intitled to storage etc fot holding safe a persons vehicle. The DMV will file papers with the last legal owner and inform them that they must contact you and the DMV with a specified time to resolve the issue. IF no one contacts the DMV then in the alloted time the DMV will issue clear title for the vehicle to you for titling fees.

Another law in Virginia that can get you and I imagine its in other States also is the totaled vehicle. If a motorcycle is totaled in an accident then the frame serial number is registered as unrepairable. You must go thew many steps to get a new frame serial number. So In Virginia be ware of buying any bike without a title if it has been wrecked it is overwhelming the problems you can go threw.

So basically to to explain James the USA is one large nation made up of States with totally separate laws and each has its own smaller subdivisions named counties or providences. The Nation, The State, and the County each theifdome having its own laws rules regulations. One common rule its all to make money off of you. Best rule in America is to not buy a motorcycle from someone to put on the road unless you get clear title in the state you are in.

[James England]

Blimey, what a nightmare. In answer to a question, we don't have a proof of ownership at all, only the registered keeper. That's why people here pay for a vehicle check (HPI) in order to establish that the vehicle doesn't actually belong to a hire purchase company. Many people are caught out by that... you buy a vehicle and get the reg doc. from the registered keeper, only to find a repo man taking it away from your drive because it was on finance and therefore did not belong to the keeper!

Downside is that people steal V5's from garages and, because of the ease of transfer to the new 'keeper', they then steal a vehicle to order, to match the reg. doc. The unwary don't notice things on the vehicle like the serial number has been altered, or filed off and re-applied, or an entire piece of chassis replaced with a new number to match the V5.

Because the UK is geagraphically small, the entire licensing system for every single vehicle on the roads (off road needss no papers at all), is administered from a place called DVLA (Drive Vehicle Licensing Agency) in Wales........

I suppose yout 'title' idea is quite good in principle....it just falls down (depending on the state) at the point where you find a Vincent Black Shadow in a barn and find the person with title is long gone.

[BA80]

I'm sure it's no more a nightmare than the system there, just different.

[jetmechmarty]

James,

If I buy a vehicle and borrow money from a bank with that vehicle as collateral, they hold the title until the loan is satisfied.

Regarding the Vincint in the barn; there's always a way to get a title if the car/bike is worth the agravation. Remember, there are 50 states with 50 different sets of laws. Just because I can't get a title in Pennsylvania doesn't mean I can't get one in Alabama.

[crazy steve]

James, you're lucky in as much as the UK apparently has 'uniform' regulations for this. Here, each state has quite a bit of leeway in how they do this, probably more akin to you trying to buy/sell a vehicle with somebody from another country.

Another aspect not mentioned is in some states, you can't dispose of a non-titled vehicle easily. Here in Washington state, if you call a hulk hauler for disposal of a dead vehicle, they won't touch it if there's no title. There is a process to deal with this, but it can get complicated/expensive and few want to spend time/money on 'junk'. There are haulers who are 'registered' with the state who are permitted to haul away untitled vehicles, but most will charge you for their service. This can be impossible for a private party to do; I've had to cut whole cars into small, non-recognisable bits more than a few times (a LOT of work) to get rid of them.

And as ViperRon mentioned, not all titles are equal; many states have more than one type. There's the 'clear' title, which usually means that the possessor owns the vehicle and there's no issues document-wise. Then there's 'salvage' or 'repairable' titles, which usually means the vehicle has been damaged and/or written off by an insurance company for some reason. These can be sticky, particularly if you take one across a state line; a lot of times, you have to document any repairs and prove that you acquired any needed parts from legal sources (i.e. have receipts from a licensed business; eBay or swap meet paper won't usually cut the mustard). A few states issue 'certificate of destruction' titles (the vehicle is supposedly damaged beyond repair, parts only) and most states won't allow these to be relicensed for road use at all, or only after considerable time/expense.

Seems horribly complicated, but keep in mind that there's no central registry in the US and with over 250 million registered vehicles in the US (and that only includes ones that are licensed and occasionally used; all that have been sitting somewhere for years don't show in this number), if there were it would be a unweildy number to deal with. Most of these rules/regulations are to prevent theft, or at least make it harder to retitle a vehicle with questionable lineage...

[ddragon63]

James, you're lucky in as much as the UK apparently has 'uniform' regulations for this. Here, each state has quite a bit of leeway in how they do this, probably more akin to you trying to buy/sell a vehicle with somebody from another country.

Another aspect not mentioned is in some states, you can't dispose of a non-titled vehicle easily. Here in Washington state, if you call a hulk hauler for disposal of a dead vehicle, they won't touch it if there's no title. There is a process to deal with this, but it can get complicated/expensive and few want to spend time/money on 'junk'. There are haulers who are 'registered' with the state who are permitted to haul away untitled vehicles, but most will charge you for their service. This can be impossible for a private party to do; I've had to cut whole cars into small, non-recognisable bits more than a few times (a LOT of work) to get rid of them.

And as ViperRon mentioned, not all titles are equal; many states have more than one type. There's the 'clear' title, which usually means that the possessor owns the vehicle and there's no issues document-wise. Then there's 'salvage' or 'repairable' titles, which usually means the vehicle has been damaged and/or written off by an insurance company for some reason. These can be sticky, particularly if you take one across a state line; a lot of times, you have to document any repairs and prove that you acquired any needed parts from legal sources (i.e. have receipts from a licensed business; eBay or swap meet paper won't usually cut the mustard). A few states issue 'certificate of destruction' titles (the vehicle is supposedly damaged beyond repair, parts only) and most states won't allow these to be relicensed for road use at all, or only after considerable time/expense.

Seems horribly complicated, but keep in mind that there's no central registry in the US and with over 250 million registered vehicles in the US (and that only includes ones that are licensed and occasionally used; all that have been sitting somewhere for years don't show in this number), if there were it would be a unweildy number to deal with. Most of these rules/regulations are to prevent theft, or at least make it harder to retitle a vehicle with questionable lineage...

We use to be able to scrap non-titled cars.... then people started making drugs in the bath tub of their trailer. Meth heads steal everything they can get their paws on and take it to Metro Metals. Now when you go to the scrap yard there's cops stationed there.

As for the the title thing... its all about money. if you think the state you live in really cares if your crap gets stolen then your more hopeful than me.

as you well know Steve here in Washington they tax the tax on your tax.... We pay a fee per lb of your vehicle here in Clark County, then they tax that fee. then you pay a service charge to get the paperwork done and I'm sure they tax that too. The lady you get the paperwork from is pocketing a cool 50k plus salary and great state benefits you just paid for... If we could all be that lucky