Question on transmission repair

[crawdad]

I've got an '81 H with 2nd gear problems making it unrideable at this point. The engine is in relatively good shape, though I am going to have to do a top end before too much longer. I'm debating whether to try and fix the transmission and do the top end, or just let it go for parts. I really don't want to get into something that is going to be a bottomless bucket type deal. Too, I'm not sure on the availability of parts. I don't know whether to just let it go for parts or try to fix it. I like the bike and hate to let it go, but I've also got to be practical about this. I know this is a question that ultimately I have to answer myself, but I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this. Would you go for it?

[TopCatGr58]

2nd Gear and TopEnd

Hey there Crawdad,

Welcome to the 2nd gear club!! I've got an 81 SH that I did the same thing to, did all the work myself. My bike had sat outside for 9 years because of the tranny and not knowing how to fix it, lack of $$, etc., and the top end went because I was negligent and didn't prep it right for storage thinking I'd get back to it much sooner than I did, but life happened!

I then found this site(The Yahoo List first before it migrated here), and Ken Talbot's wonderful pages, and with some basic modest prior skill at doing car engine rebuilds, I dove into the bike to do my resurrection...I don't call it a RESTORE because I wasn't going for showroom glitz, just decent look and "fun"ctionality!!! I put a bit over $2,500.00 into it, but that was also adding new forks, tires, clutches, seat, brake MC, bars, electric switches, etc., not to mention the TopEnd kit, cylinder boring costs, and tools for the tranny fix. But it's been rock solid for over 3 years, have ridden it to several rallies, NY, Ga, NC, PA, all from Va. and all riding the bike. I wasn't looking at the cost with regards to whether I could ever get my $$ back if I sold the bike, selling it was never in my mind. But I have gotten much more than that in the amount of fun and pleasure it has provided, not to mention, I can work on myself.

I did the topend and Tranny fix without splitting the cases. I did pull the motor from the frame, but it can be done still in the frame! If you enjoy your bike, and putting $500 $750 into it is within your budget, then I say keep it and fix it "YOURSELF"!!

HTH!?

[crawdad]

Did you do the top end yourself? What kind of machining did you have to have done, if any? I'm pretty sure the oil seals are gone on mine and will need to be replaced. The PO of my bike left it sitting outside without prepping it as well. Thanks.

[TopCatGr58]

Well, the oil seals on mine were still in good shape, no sign of leaking, and I'm pretty sure I had 50K on the engine before I tore it down. Long story, Odometer broke at 995 miles, just kept using the tripometer!! I drove it 35miles one way to work for over 2 years(36K just for work!), plus trip to Ga. and around town for total of 9 years.

Yes, I did all the mechanic work myself, just had a machine shop do the boring on the cylinders, you find a mc shop, or machine/engine shop familiar with bike engines, take the new pistons you get in the WISECO kit so they can Micrometer them and match them to your cylinders, then you just put it together, ensuring you have proper ring end gaps, and such!! I replaced the valve seals, lapped the valves instead of grinding them, others here will say you should have them ground for a few bucks more!? If you drop me an email(not PM), I can send you info on the Tranny fix including a step by step I wrote up from my own experience(have done 3 now, mine and two XJ's) along with pictures, etc.. I still haven't "made" the time to get our tech tip written up on this, but there's lots of info in Ken's pages as well!!
T.C.

[Jerry]

Transmission parts are still available. Most of the time what you need is the 2nd and 5th gears, gaskets, and possible shifting forks. Clutch friction disks, pressure plates, and springs are available from Yamaha and after-market sources. Part numbers are on Ken Talbot's home page. (See Tech Tips, Off-site, Ken Talbot for links.)

Tranny fix is labor intensive. If you can do it yourself (and if I can, just about anyone can!) your cost is going to be reasonable. If you have to farm it out the price will be quite a bit higher...you are looking at 4 - 6 hours shop time if the mech knows what he is doing. Many shops will tell you the engine has to be removed and the cases split. Not true, as membes of this list will attest, but you run into it all the time. (Engine removal makes the tranny work go faster but is not essential.)

If the rest of the bike is in relatively good shape I would do the tranny fix and keep the bike going.

[turbox79]

I will have to look and see if I still have the paper work on my last trans, I think it was schnitz. I did my suzuki and xs at the same time and wernt to expensive if you plan on keeping the yamaha I say spend the extra $50 and back cut the shift forks and never have trans problems agian

[oldnortonrider]

turbox79

What does that mean ? > "......back cut the shift forks......"

[turbox79]

the drag bike trick is to backcut shift forks.because if you look at a new one its square corners so every time that you miss a gear or dont get it in all the way or even over time the fork rounds out if you look at the shift fork pict on a other topic you can see where it wears out so find some one that knows what there doing they can cut the shift fork so that it wont wear out. here is a link that helps a little more. its the only thing I could find in a hurry
http://www.roostfest.com/mp_racing_rebuild_part_4.htm

[oldnortonrider]

turbox79

Gosh; golly! > Thank you! for putting that link on that posting.
I'm beginning to read in between the lines, on this transmission
problem............

I'm speculating that "part" of the early on stage of the dogs
starting to round off > is cuz of the business of "not gettin' it
all the way in" ........(shift fork 'problem')...... .

I hadn't seen this discussed or addressed before on any of these
threads, links, or postings; just the "spacer" problem. And the "black-and-decker" clean-up of the dogs, and the slots.

How have you been dealing with the "spacer problem"? Have
you been moving it?

Racing does improve the breed.

[turbox79]

I'v got a clutch trick to since they dont make a lock up for my bike and with a turbo it smokes every clutch I put in it so well talk about that next week

[oldnortonrider]

......ok.........10-4...........

.............whuddaboutthespacer?...............

Have you been moving the spacer, to let the dogs to be able to go in further?

[oldnortonrider]

.....AND, am also curious >> ? ......

......Bob Jones, on his "Merriamcycle" site, does mention "about
the spacer", in the transmission, being in the wrong place, from
the factory. Does he go into this, in more detail > in his book "XS11 Heaven" ?? Any shifting fork modifications??

......?? Any input on this from an XS member, that has read the
book, or talked to him personally, about this ???

[Jerry]

Merriam recommends moving the washer from the circlip side of the gear to the backside. This increases engagement of the gears by about .040, enough to fix the lack of engagement that appears to be the root cause of the problem.

On the other hand, another party raised questions about the possibility of the gear rubbing on the clip with the washer gone. Solution is to get another spacer (donner tranny, spacer is no longer available from Yamaha) and get the 2nd gear cut or ground down the same thickness as the washer. Put 1 washer on each side of the gear; you get the extra engagement plus protection for the clip. This is what I did with the XJ's tranny fix; a shop cut the face of the gear for the extra washer. Cost was $35.00. I gave them the extra washer to use as a pattern. See a photo of the cut gear at:

http://www.rctvonline.net/xs11/2nd_gear.jpg

Most people think this is overkill, and just moving the washer is sufficient.

[oldnortonrider]

I appreciate the picture.

And, the washer/spacer on each side of the gear, sounds like the
more sanitary way to have it. Good insurance.
I would not consider it overkill.

I've got this job staring me in the face; and have been gettin' by
for 5 years with "the skippin' problem". Babyin' it in 1st gear.
I don't think I can stand it much longer.

I want to look into turbox79's "shifting fork" situation, some more
.....and see if I can't get some more input about that. We need some pictures of his "before and after" alteration(s) of the shifting fork. I'm sure I'll need more than that; that would be a start to figure what I need to know, though.

One of the reasons, I'm pushin' to figure out "the complete fix" on this job, is cuz, I know, at least one other XSer friend of mine, that's going to need for me to help him do this on his, ..........probably in the next few months; and I haven't even done it to mine , yet.

[turbox79]

I will have to get with my dad on the spacer issue because its been 7-8years sience we did the trans so dont remember to much about the xs exept I dont have any problems with it. the suzuki we rebuild every year but the big slick is much harder on the trans than the little tire on my xs so ill bug him about it tonight