Long Trips

[fredintoon]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their opinions and knowledge in this area as I don't plan on this undertaking lightly for safety reasons. Please continue to share your experience dos and don'ts.
p.s. no sidecar lol

Hi old skool,
these are British:-

http://www.trailertek.com/acatalog/Unbraked_Suspension_Units.html

and bringing them in would kill the deal.
But they are ideal for lightweight trailer work. I've seen lookalikes on sale at Princess Auto so it's likely that Harbor Freight etc. would be importing Chinese copies. A pair of those and a square tube Tee-frame is all you will need to bolt a cartop carrier to.

[old_skool]

Interesting, never seen those before

[fredintoon]

Interesting, never seen those before

Yeah, they've been around in the UK since at least the 1950s.
A smaller sq tube set at 45º inside a larger one and the 4 triangular slots poured full of rubber for the torsion spring.

[old_skool]

funny ha ha, no seriously, it could work


Really though, thanks everyone, great ideas, I've found a few possibilities on craigs already, but not ready for this project yet, still in the planning stage, bike comes first. But will be keeping my eye out especially around this time of year for that once in a lifetime bargain. I'll be saving all these ideas!!

[old_skool]

WOW! Just found some really nice car top carriers, like the $400 ones, selling right now for $25 to $50 on craigs, so many, I could go into production. Will probably have to get one now as opposed to later while the holidays are stretching peoples wallets thin. I can't even afford a wallet so I don't have that problem....

[3Phase]

Trailers, GVWR, Tires, Weight and Weight Distribution

Not to dampen your enthusiasm for towing a trailer but I did some weight calculations for my '80G after I got back from the Durango rally last summer and it's not pretty.

Plenty of people have ridden two-up and pulled trailers with very few or absolutely no problems at all but you should be aware of the limits you will be exceeding before you decide to test them yourself. Tattoo the warnings about trailering, the GVWR for your bike and the speed/load rating for its tires on the inside of your skull where you can find them in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.

For me this all started when I met up with Cy Welch in Sacratomato on the way back home from Vancouver, WA., and we had a lively discussion about GVWR, carbon monoxide poisoning behind the fairing and the position of the exhaust pipe outlets in relation to all of the 'stuff' I had lashed to and loaded in Columbo at the time.

After I got home I eventually got bored enough one night to search and find a web reference to a roughly 45%/55% front/rear weight distribution on the XS1100, then I used the fine Yamaha factory manual and the tire weight and speed ratings to see just what was really going on after I weighed my luggage, myself and my riding gear. I don't have a half-ton scale handy so I cheated and shamelessly copied the weight that XS11 forum member Crazcnuk posted when he weighed his '80G and its empty touring gear.

I did not include the 100 lbs of A.L.I.C.E. pack, the spare tire, the tent and sleeping bag, tools, clothing, food, water, spare parts and all the other stuff that gets tucked into the fairing and saddlebags or tied to the luggage rack and the rear half of the seat. Keep that 100 lb payload or more in mind for the calculations about riding two-up with a svelte 150 lb passenger/gear and remember that the maximum tire weight ratings for the tires I use are for a sustained 130 MPH at 72F and sea level in Tokyo.

Are you ready? Let's play with the calculator and have some fun!


XS1100G GVWR:

XS1100G 562 lb (255 kg) dry curb weight

Stock dry weight distribution
45% front = 253 lb (115 kg)
55% rear = 309 lb (140 kg)


XS11000G 603 lb (273 kg) wet weight
32 lb (15.2 kg) of gasoline @ 6.073 lb per gallon * 5.3 gallons (20 liters * 0.76 kg per liter)
7.5 lb (3.4 kg) for 1 US gallon (20 liters) of 20W-50 oil
1 lb (0.45 kg) for 0.708 quart (670 cc) of middle and final drive oil
0.5 lb (0.23 kg) for 270 cc of front fork oil
?? oz (gram) for brake fluid and grease

Stock wet weight distribution
45% front = 271 lb (123 kg)
55% rear = 332 lb (150 kg)


XS1100G GVWR = 1090 lb (495 kg)
Max load = 528 lb (240 kg) dry or 488 lb (221 kg) wet

Max stock wet weight distribution
45% front = 491 lb (223 kg)
55% rear = 600 lb (272 kg)


Crazcnuk weighed his XS1100G with bags and fairing and he had
603 lb (273 kg) wet + 77 lb (35 kg) of bags and fairing = 860 lb (390 kg)

45% front = 387 lb (176 kg)
55% rear = 473 lb (215 kg)


Add a 220 lb (100 kg) rider + 20 lb (9 kg) of riding gear = 1100 lb (499 kg)
My XS1100 is 10 lb (4.5 kg) and 1% over its max GVWR

45% front = 495 lb (225 kg)
55% rear = 605 lb (274 kg)

A 100/90 57H front tire is only 12 lb (5.4 kg) below its max weight rating
A 130/90 68H rear tire is 90 lb (41 kg) below its max weight rating
A 130/90 74H rear tire is 222 lb (100 kg) below its max weight rating


Add a 150 lb (68 kg) passenger with riding gear = 1250 lb (567 kg)
The XS1100 is now 160 lb (72.5 kg) and 15% over its GVWR

45% front = 562 lb (255 kg)
55% rear = 688 lb (312 kg)

100/90-19 57H Lasertec or Marathon ME880 front tire
55 lb (25 kg) or 11% over its max weight rating


130/90-17 68H/68V Lasertec rear tire
7 lb (3.2 kg) or 1% under its max weight rating

130/90-17 74H Marathon ME88 rear tire
139 lb (63 kg) or 16.8% under its max weight rating



Previous tires

Front Lasertec 100/90-19 M/C 57H TL
57H = 507 lb (230 kg) @ 130 MPH

Rear Lasertec 130/90-17 M/C 68V TL
68V = 694 lb (315 kg) @ 149 MPH


Current tires

Front Marathon ME880 100/90-19 M/C 57H TL
57H = 507 lb (230 kg) @ 130 MPH

Rear Marathon ME88 130/90 B 17 M/C 74H REINF TL
74H = 827 lb (375 kg) @ 130 MPH


A better front tire would be a 62H 584 lb (265 kg) @ 130 MPH
A 62H can carry an additional 77 lb or 15.25% more than a 57H front tire with the same speed rating
but it also might not fit under the front fender.

A front Lasertec or Marathon ME880 110/90-19 M/C 62H TL
would be 22 lb (10 kg) or 3.75 % under its max weight rating



For reference ONLY!

Load Index Rating (pounds)

LI	lb	LI	lb	LI	lb	LI	lb	LI	lb
19	171	36	276	53	206	70	739 	87	1202
20	176	37	282	54	212	71	761 	88	1235
21	182	38	291	55	218	72	783	89	1279
22	187	39	300	56	224	73	805	90	1323
23	193	40	309	57	230	74	827	91	1356
24	198	41	320	58	236	75	853	92	1389
25	203	42	331	59	243	76	882	93	1433
26	209	43	342	60	250	77	908	94	1477
27	215	44	353	61	257	78	937	95	1521
28	220	45	364	62	265	79	963	96	1565
29	227	46	375	63	272	80	992	97	1609
30	234 	47	386	64	280	81	1019	98	1653
31	240 	48	397	65	290	82	1047	99	1709
32	247 	49	408	66	300	83	1074	100	1764
33	254 	50	419	67	307	84	1102	101	1819
34	260 	51	430	68	315	85	1124	102	1874
35	267 	52	441	69	325	86	1168	103	1929



Load Index Rating (kilograms)

LI	KG	LI	KG	LI	KG	LI	KG
0	45	40	140	80	450	120	1400
1	46.2	41	145	81	462	121	1450
2	47.5	42	150	82	475	122	1500
3	48.7	43	155	83	487	123	1550
4	50	44	160	84	500	124	1600
5	51.5	45	165	85	515	125	1650
6	53	46	170	86	530	126	1700
7	54.5	47	175	87	545	127	1750
8	56	48	180	88	560	128	1800
9	58	49	185	89	580	129	1850
10	60	50	190	90	600	130	1900
11	61.5	51	195	91	615	131	1950
12	63	52	200	92	630	132	2000
13	65	53	206	93	650	133	2060
14	67	54	212	94	670	134	2120
15	69	55	218	95	690	135	2180
16	71	56	224	96	710	136	2240
17	73	57	230	97	730	137	2300
18	75	58	236	98	750	138	2360
19	77.5	59	243	99	775	139	2430
20	80	60	250	100	800	140	2500
21	82.5	61	257	101	825	141	2575
22	85	62	265	102	850	142	2650
23	87.5	63	272	103	875	143	2725
24	90	64	280	104	900	144	2800
25	92.5	65	290	105	925	145	2900
26	95	66	300	106	950	146	3000
27	97.5	67	307	107	975	147	3075
28	100	68	315	108	1000	148	3150
29	103	69	325	109	1030	149	3250
30	106	70	335	110	1060	150	3350
31	109	71	345	111	1090	151	3450
32	112	72	355	112	1120	152	3550
33	115	73	365	113	1150	153	3650
34	118	74	375	114	1180	154	3750
35	121	75	387	115	1215	155	3875
36	125	76	400	116	1250	156	4000
37	128	77	412	117	1285	157	4125
38	132	78	425	118	1320	158	4250
39	136	79	437	119	1360	159	4375


Load Index Rating (kilograms)

LI	KG	LI	KG	LI	KG	LI	KG
120	1400	160	4500	200	14000	240	45000
121	1450	161	4625	201	14500	241	46250
122	1500	162	4750	202	15000	242	47500
123	1550	163	4875	203	16000	243	48750
124	1600	164	5000	204	16000	244	50000
125	1650	165	5150	205	16500	245	51500
126	1700	166	5300	206	17000	246	53000
127	1750	167	5450	207	17500	247	54500
128	1800	168	5600	208	18000	248	56000
129	1850	169	5800	209	18500	249	58000
130	1900	170	6000	210	19000	250	60000
131	1950	171	6150	211	19500	251	61500
132	2000	172	6300	212	20000	252	63000
133	2060	173	6500	213	20600	253	65000
134	2120	174	6700	214	21200	254	67000
135	2180	175	6900	215	21800	255	69000
136	2240	176	7100	216	22400	256	71000
137	2300	177	7300	217	23000	257	73000
138	2360	178	7500	218	23600	258	75000
139	2430	179	7750	219	24300	259	77500
140	2500	180	8000	220	25000	260	80000
141	2575	181	8250	221	25750	261	82500
142	2650	182	8500	222	26500	262	85000
143	2725	183	8750	223	27250	263	87500
144	2800	184	9000	224	28000	264	90000
145	2900	185	9250	225	29000	265	92500
146	3000	186	9500	226	30000	266	95000
147	3075	187	9750	227	30750	267	97500
148	3150	188	10000	228	31500	268	100000
149	3250	189	10300	229	32500	269	103000
150	3350	190	10600	230	33500	270	106000
151	3450	191	10900	231	34500	271	109000
152	3550	192	11200	232	35500	272	112000
153	3650	193	11500	233	36500	273	115000
154	3750	194	11800	234	37500	274	118000
155	3875	195	12150	235	38750	275	121500
156	4000	196	12500	236	40000	276	125000
157	4125	197	12850	237	41250	277	128500
158	4250	198	13200	238	42500	278	132000
159	4375	199	13600	239	43750	279	136000

Motorcycle Tire Continuous Speed Rating

Rating	MPH	KPH
J	62	100
N 	87	140
P 	94	150
S 	112	180
H 	130	210
V 	149	240
Z 	149 up	240 up

[old_skool]

Now my head hurts, well with that in mind, then everyone with a fairing and luggage boxes a trunk packed and riding 2 up are probably doing it over gross.
At least some of my load will be resting on their own set of tires with it own inherit GVRW in addition to mine. I don't plan on having any of those luggage or fairing add ons.

[3Phase]

Typographical Error

Now my head hurts, well with that in mind, then everyone with a fairing and luggage boxes a trunk packed and riding 2 up are probably doing it over gross.

At least some of my load will be resting on their own set of tires with it own inherit GVRW in addition to mine. I don't plan on having any of those luggage or fairing add ons.

Without fairing and saddlebags my XS is about 250 lb (113 kg) or 23% below its max GVWR but, yeah, the XS is close to its GVWR. Its steel frame is also thirty years old so take the original GVWR with a giant grain of stress-cracked iron oxide.

I have to admit that I made a typo last night and I transposed a couple of numbers. I had done some passenger and cargo calculations without updating the file so I entered 860 lb instead of 680 lb for a wet '80G with fairing and saddlebags. As you can see, just 180 lb (82 kg) changed some of the calculations from, "It's looking pretty grim, Jim!" to, "It's overloaded!"

My discussion with Cy was prompted by a recent lawsuit filed against Harley-Davidson by a (former?) Harley rider that killed his wife by running his brand new Harley overloaded and pulling a trailer. From what I remember, he claimed that the GVWR information wasn't easily accessible and the warnings about overloading the bike, the tires, and towing a trailer were not sufficient. In other words, "It's not my fault! The dealer made me do it!"

However the court case turns out the bike and trailer were creamed, the guy was injured and couldn't work, his wife is dead, and he got hit with major hospital bills.


Anyway! Moving right along! Here are the corrected numbers:

XS1100G GVWR 1090 lb (495 kg)
562 lb (255 kg) dry curb weight
603 lb (273 kg) wet weight

Stock dry weight distribution
45% front = 253 lb (115 kg)
55% rear = 309 lb (140 kg)


Wet mass
32 lb (15.2 kg) of gasoline @ 6.073 lb per gallon * 5.3 gallons (20 liters * 0.76 kg per liter)
7.5 lb (3.4 kg) for 1 US gallon (20 liters) of 20W-50 oil
1 lb (0.45 kg) for 0.708 quart (670 cc) of middle and final drive oil
0.5 lb (0.23 kg) for 270 cc of front fork oil
?? oz (gram) for brake fluid and grease

Stock wet weight distribution
45% front = 271 lb (123 kg)
55% rear = 332 lb (150 kg)


XS1100G GVWR = 1090 lb (495 kg)
Max load = 528 lb (240 kg) dry or 488 lb (221 kg) wet

Max stock wet weight distribution
45% front = 491 lb (223 kg)
55% rear = 600 lb (272 kg)


Crazcnuk weighed his XS1100G with bags and fairing and he had
603 lb (273 kg) wet + 77 lb (35 kg) of bags and fairing = 680 lb (309 kg)


Add a 220 lb (100 kg) rider + 20 lb (9 kg) of riding gear

Without fairing and saddle bags:
My XS11 is 843 lb (382 kg) or 247 lb and 23% below its max GVWR


All of the following calculations include the fairing and saddlebags:
My XS11 is 920 lb (417 kg) or 170 lb (77 kg) or 16% below its max GVWR


45% front = 414 lb (188 kg)
55% rear = 506 lb (230 kg)

A 100/90 57H front tire is only 93 lb (42 kg) below its max weight rating
A 130/90 68H rear tire is only 188 lb (85 kg) below its max weight rating
A 130/90 74H rear tire is 321 lb (146 kg) below its max weight rating


Add a 150 lb (68 kg) passenger with riding gear = 1070 lb (485 kg)
The XS1100 is now only 20 lb (9 kg) or 2% under its GVWR

45% front = 482 lb ( 218 kg)
55% rear = 589 lb (267 kg)

100/90-19 57H Lasertec or Marathon ME880 front tire
25 lb (11 kg) or 5% below its max weight rating


130/90-17 68H/68V Lasertec rear tire
105 lb (48 kg) or 15% below its max weight rating

130/90-17 74H Marathon ME88 rear tire
321 lb (146 kg) or 28% below its max weight rating

You can see why I'm running the ME88 rear tire. I'm not too concerned about the load except when I ride through the desert in the summer and the heat starts to bring the tires closer and closer to the temperature at which they were molded and cured at the factory.

[crazy steve]

I'll note that when I was pulling my trailer, I was running a 'naked' bike (just a windshield), so I didn't have all the extra weight from a fairing, bags, etc. That was the main reason I bought a trailer; I wanted the storage space when touring, but didn't want the extra weight on the bike when I wasn't. As Scott's calculations show, trying to run both isn't a good idea...

[3Phase]

Yep, it's better with just a windshield and no fairing or hard bags but it's still pretty tight; maybe just some throwover leather bags to hold gloves, maps, rain gear, and some other light stuff.

I honestly don't know how to calculate a ballpark safe trailer weight for an XS but there really isn't much to left play with at all after you sit your good self in the saddle with a full tank of fuel. There are too many variables with the year/model XS and the type of use or abuse it's seen so the weight, type of trailer, type of hitch and the tongue weight would have to be worked out by the owner.

In a nutshell: for me to keep a 15% safety margin below the max GVWR I can carry a little less than 150 lb (68 kg) on my '80G with the fairing and bags or a little more than 210 lb (95 kg) without them.

I suppose I could lose some weight and it would be even better, like a monkey riding a dog!

[crazy steve]

I'm sure there's a 'cheat factor' involved, as with just a trailer the only 'real' weight you're adding to the bike is the weight of the hitch (mine was about 15 lbs or so) and the tongue weight (again, not much; 10-15 lbs). This is what fools people into thinking they can tow a big trailer. But too much weight will effect braking distance, as well as 'pushing' the rear of the bike around when changing lanes and such. Like I said, I kept mine below 150-160 lbs total for the trailer w/contents, and with two-up never had any issues other than slightly longer braking distances, same as you'd have when towing with any vehicle. Less weight and/or solo riding, I usually couldn't even tell it was there, even during some fairly aggressive cornering. I never actually weighed mine, but in my pre-bad-back days I could easily pick the rear of the loaded-for-camping trailer off the ground by just grabbing the rear bumper. If you can't do that, you've got too much weight.

At the time I bought mine, trailers were all the rage; Harley even offered a factory accessory hitch for their big touring bikes, and the rest of the manufacturers were usually silent on the advisability of towing. Several trailer manufacturers (CycleKamp was the worst offender) started offering ever-more elaborate trailers, up to a tent trailer that slept six!! The only real concession to motorcycle use was these were lower to the ground compared to a 'normal' trailer, but they still were way too heavy to be safely towed. The inevitable happened (accidents, deaths, injuries), lawsuits were filed, and trailers for bikes quickly disappeared.

[jetmechmarty]

The brakes on these things aren't impressive.

Bottom line: With the ME880 tires is the bike OK with a middle aged couple on it? And maybe 40-50 lbs of stuff. It looks to me like it's overweight. With my bulk, it's passenger weight limited. Suited up, I'm over 250#.

What if I have replaced the springs with much stiffer ones? Do we know why it's rated as it is? Is it the frame, the suspension, the brakes, or all three?

[ViperRon]

One more thought

I know with everyone beating you up on this you don't want to heare anymore but one more thought. Today with all the cheap insurance companies out there you may want to make sure your insurance company covers towing a trailer and if using it often maybe increase coverage. You can be in the right driving safe and have some lawyer in a BMW run into you and push blame your way. Believe me the last thing you need is a bad insurance policy and they do exist. I worked with a guy when I was in the Navy that was getting gas at a 7-11. People parked accross from him and their toddler ran and tripped falling in-between the front wheel and header pipes. It was severe burns and he was in a real fight with insurance to even cover their 25K.

[3Phase]

I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas! I know I did!


Ron, that's a very good point about the insurance. My current policy won't cover pulling a trailer so I'd have to see if there are any options or find another carrier.


Steve, I've seen some of those trailers you mentioned; looked like a coffin and an Andy Gump sailed through the K-Mart camping section and collided with one of those Coleman poppers. The only XS/XJ trailer I've seen in person is the one Jerry made for his XJ and he went everywhere with it for years without any real problem. I think he still uses it with his new Connie so I know it can be done, you just need to have your head ... wired together.


Marty, check the tires before you ride and click your heels together while saying, "There's no place like home!"

I've been running the older ME88 17", which is a very different tire than the ME880 16" for your bike. I had a LaserTec and now a ME880 on the front that have been fine so far but I believe manufacturers' tire Load Index/Continuous Speed and GVWR numbers like I believe the 160 MPH speedometer.

[skids]

I converted a Harbour Freight trailer for the XS11. It pulled nicely. If you rig a trailer, you really don't want much weight or tongue weight. Tongue weight is needed, but you have to remember that it reduces braking at the front of the bike. The total weight must be handled by the bike (unless you have electric trailer brakes?) and this can be tricky with down-hill braking where sand/gravel is present. You really can't skid either tire while pulling a trailer.