Stick Coils

[XS1100_OEM4ME]

Wow!

Wow, Ill bet you are sorry you ever brought that idea up

Just did a mod to my 1990 Kawasaki Concours. Removed the stock ignition coils and replaced the whole setup with stick coils from a sports bike. Stick coils have the coil built into spark plug cap and provide better spark..




Cost me $60 for a set of 4 from fleabay. Anyone tried this on an XS ?

[natemoen]

Wow, Ill bet you are sorry you ever brought that idea up

Off the wall ideas are what makes things great! Who knows maybe someone will figure put how to set up dwell control in a home made ignition unit.

[jwhughes3]

Does it matter

Does it matter that he bought the coils for a 1990 Kawasaki Concours and not an XS?

Do same rules on dwell and stuff apply?

John

[cywelchjr]

One of the problems is that our ignitions systems work backwards from most modern systems. Most modern systems send a PULSE to the coils to create the spark. Ours work like a points system where the coils are normally energized and the spark is created by de-energizing the coil, causing a spark by the rapidly collapsing magnetic field, rather than the quickly building field cause by the pulse of a CDI system. Now I understand that you can still have a system rather like ours that creates the spark on the breaking of the current, but limit the time the current is on, but it takes if I'm correct a computer controlled system that knows the crank position at all times to do this, since it has to energize the coils far enough in advance to let the field build fully before it breaks the circuit to generate the spark, and this point will vary with RPM.

I believe that the megasquirt and microsquirt systems are capable of doing this, but they are not something that falls into the cheap or simple category.

[DAVINCI]

Most modern systems send a PULSE to the coils to create the spark

Really? I didn't know that

[crazy steve]

...Now I understand that you can still have a system rather like ours that creates the spark on the breaking of the current, but limit the time the current is on, but it takes if I'm correct a computer controlled system that knows the crank position at all times to do this, since it has to energize the coils far enough in advance to let the field build fully before it breaks the circuit to generate the spark, and this point will vary with RPM..

Or would you? This got me to thinking about how the XS ignition works, and I wonder if the thoughts below would be a solution?

The XS ignition works by getting a signal each time one of the reluctor tangs goes by a pick-up coil. If I understand how this works, this signal tells the TCI to disconnect the 'ground' to the coils, causing the magnetic field to collapse and fire the plugs. In effect, the coils are always 'on' until the signal momentarily turns them 'off'. This is why the TCI has that 'auto-off' feature; without it, the coils would get overheated if the motor isn't turning, and is also the reason why these 'dwell limited' coils won't work.

I'm thinking you may be able to 'fool' the TCI into shortening the 'on' time by replacing the reluctor tangs with a solid disc with two slots cut into it. In effect, the solid part of the disc would represent an 'off' signal, and the slots would be 'on'. A mechanical way to accomplish what more modern units do with electronics. The big trick would be determining the length of the slots, giving enough 'on' time to properly 'charge' the ignition coil.

This may be how Harley ignitions work; they use a solid disc with slots. You'd have to custom-build the reluctor, and it may not be this simple, but maybe worth a thought...

[cywelchjr]

Really? I didn't know that

This is my understanding of the difference between a CDI and TCI style of ignition system. I'll admit I could be wrong, but it's my understanding of how it works, and it's why typical CDI coils are usually very low resistance in comparison to TCI coils. Now maybe these stick coils are for a TCI type system with dwell control to prevent burnout? I don't know about that.

I do however remember a discussion about the difference between CDI and TCI and how they basically work opposite each other, with CDI sending a higher voltage pulse to the primary side of the coils rather than breaking a basically continuous current connection to fire them.

[JasonRedbeard]

Steve..that's a good thought about a slotted disc for a reluctor, but you'll run into a major issue at high RPM: the faster the engine turns, the faster the slot goes by the pickup and you'll end up getting a shorter "on-time" and thusly weaker spark as RPM increases.

[cywelchjr]

Yeah, without having an ignition system designed to do that already, you would need a microcontroller based system that can handle that. Any of the systems that can do fuel injection can also do the ignition stuff, and you DON'T have to do the fuel injection to do it, you can just do the ignition stuff by itself.

[daveyg]

on my xs650 i put a H-D ignition coil, worked fantastic! The H-D unit was capable of delivering about double the voltage. I didn't have the bike long enough to really test it's reliability though. If my coils on the 11 ever take a crap that will be my next attempt.

[XS1100_OEM4ME]

Joke!

I agree, it was just a joke I have got some great off the wall ideas on here, and I am sure most of, if not all my ideas are off the wall like Phil says"If it ain't broke, modify it"

Off the wall ideas are what makes things great! Who knows maybe someone will figure put how to set up dwell control in a home made ignition unit.

[DAVINCI]

Off the wall ideas are what makes things great! Who knows maybe someone will figure put how to set up dwell control in a home made ignition unit.

If memory serves, doesn't the '81-up ignition do that auto-dwell control?

[crazy steve]

If memory serves, doesn't the '81-up ignition do that auto-dwell control?

According to the Dyna tech I talked to, that particular feature didn't show up as OEM on much of anything until the late 90s. They do offer an aftermarket ignition box with all that stuff built-in that could be used on a XS, but at $270 for just the box, I think I'll pass....

[oldnortonrider]

on my xs650 i put a H-D ignition coil, worked fantastic! The H-D unit was capable of delivering about double the voltage. I didn't have the bike long enough to really test it's reliability though. If my coils on the 11 ever take a crap that will be my next attempt.

Most Harleys use two types of coils~~one type with three primary connects~~another type with two primary connects;~~which type did you switch over to the XS650? Curious, if you took an ohm reading of the Harley coil, and if it was similar to ohm reading of what the XS650 coil reading was supposed to have been?

[snapondreamer]

Hi there very interesting read guys.I run a full Dyna s ignition and green Dyna coils on my 2H9 "E" if your looking for insparation.Its been like that for 25000 miles.Very reliable set up.