Doesn't start but is not the starter/solenoid?

[Mark_E]

Fellow Riders,

Bike: '82 XJ1100. Approx 60,000 kms

Scenario: Last season my recurring starter solenoid problems resurfaced. In previous seasons I would hit the start button and the solenoid would click but not start. I opened up that high amp solenoid and, realizing one of the contacts was burnt off a bit, repaired the unit and things worked. Now last season, non-starting resumed but without the click. Well, I tolerated it (I'd stick my pocket knife there under the seat jumping the solenoid contacts ) but the time has come to fix the problem

Diagnosis: Not much yet but it's not necessarily that the the main solenoid doesn't work. (the high amp one under the seat on the RH side.) The solenoid does not always actuate but that may not be it'sfault. I took it off, tested it at 12 volts and less and it clicked and connected nicely. At lower voltages (8v.) it did not click as solidly. I put it back on the bike and it clicks reasonably well. Often the bike starts starting but about 1 in 4 times the solenoid does not click and half of those times it will click after holding the start button for about 3 seconds. (This past season, it would not click at all.) When Start is pressed, the headlight goes out. (is it supposed to? Is there a different solenoid in the circuit that cuts off the light in order to not waste amps durin starting? Speculation.) The solenoid is getting about 8 volts when Start is pressed.

If the Start button did not work, the headlight would not dim as it does. If the Start button is single-pole, double-throw, maybe the headlight dimming part works but the other part of the switch does not work? Is the Start switch spdt?


Actual Problem: Unknown. What voltage 'should' the solenoid be getting? A full 12 volts or less? Since the solenoid clicks, I think it works. If

Possible Solutions: A) Replace the solenoid with hopes that a newer one will work better, even at 8 volts. If 8 volts is the proper voltage, then a replacement should work.
B) Install my own switch down by the seat to provide 12 volts straight off the battery to the solenoid coil. This will not cut out the headlight during starting. This also might bypass in-place safeties such as not starting while in gear.
C) Learn how the starting circuit works and determine if the solenoid is getting proper voltage. If it is not, fix it.

Any suggestions/comments/advice? Any knowledge or diagrams to share on the starting circuit? (All I have right now is part of a parts manual and possibly a '78XS.)

(Does any of this make sense?)

Thanks

Mark
E

[TopCatGr58]

Starter problems

Hey there Mark,

Our Resident XJ guru is Jerry, so maybe he'll chime in here if I leave something out. I don't have access to the XJ wiring diagram, but aside from the nifty computer monitoring system, I wouldn't think that they would have changed the starting circuit too much, aside from like you mentioned, safety interlocks, like neutral, kickstand, clutch switches.

The starter solenoid should get 12 volts direct from the battery. The circuit bypasses the ballast resistor to send full voltage to the coils to enable stronger starts, then once started, it then runs power thru the resistor.

The starter button is only a simple SpSt...temporary switch that completes the grounding circuit that starts at the battery, thru one side of the solenoid, then to the handlebars to the starter button, to ground. The starter buttons are notorious for corroding and going bad. That circuit is simply to engage the magnet that pulls the lever to supply the full 12volts/amperage to the starter motor thru the other end/side of the solenoid. The clicking you're hearing is that magnet being thrown/pulled into making the contacts. If you're only getting 8 volts to the solenoid, then you have some corrosion somewhere, and need to clean your contacts thru the circuit, battery, at the solenoid, and at any of the plugs/connectors!!

You can test the starter button by opening the switch set, jumping a well grounded wire from the frame to the wire that goes to the starter button, if the starter engages and works consistently, then it's most likely a bad/poorly grounding starter switch, clean/replace as needed.

If it still acts intermittently, then either the solenoid may have a short or going bad, or as mentioned earlier, the wiring to it and that circuit is faulty somewhere.

On the XS11, there is a diode and latching circuit that keeps the headlight from coming on until the engine fully starts, so yours may have gone bad, but that shouldn't affect the starter circuit as far as I know! That's about all I can suggest! Good Luck.

T.C.

[Mark_E]

Reply Comments......

TC
Thanks so much for the input so far and answers to some of my questions.

In regards to the headlight diode, if the headlight is still dimming when I try to start is it safe to say that that part of the circuit is working properly? I'd suggest it is as the headlight does dim.

Second, thanks for the info on the batt-solenloid-STARTswitch-ground circuit. It's something this simple that I'm compelled to install my own switch down by the seat. (Though if I can fix it, why not. It's handy to have a start switch where it currently is, that's why its there.)

Third, the fact that the solenoid does click nicely when hooked up to a 12 volt source and it does solidly contact the High-amp contacts each time it clicks leads me to believe it still works well. As mentioned, I had solenoid problems a couple of years ago: the solenoid would click but the connect bar wouldn't contact one of the contacts inside the solenoid. Since I fixed that, so far it had worked. If this solenoid is giving me trouble, there is one currenly on Ebay.ca that ends literally in 24 hours for a mere $10 that I'd really like to get. If you think this solenoid will fail me in the future, I'm seriously thinking of getting it. Comments?

So tomorrow I'm going to try running straight 12 volts from the battery to the solenoid and see how it clicks. Then I'll look into the start button and see how things look in there.

Thanks so much for the input

Mark
E

[skids]

Hmmm... I don't remember the model E as having a headlight diode. It does have an off/on switch on the right grip, but it will bipass the switch once the alternator starts turning (the function of the latching relay). I would not overlook the possibility of a bad battery.

[Ken Talbot]

I would also be worth your time to take apart, clean, and re-tighten the battery connectors and the ground connection to the frame. It sonds like you have already done the connections on the solenoid. It is amazing how much trouble a bad ground can cause......

[Hobbit]

I just repaired a similar problem with my son's 650 Maxim, the connector for the starter button inside the headlight was dirty. Not the starter butto wire, but the kill switch wire.

[Jerry]

Ken and T.C. have hit most all the points. The XJ starting circuit is a bit different than the XS, more complicated. For example, one of the solenoid leads (starting circuit relay, according to Yamaha) runs up to a small device known as the Starting Circuit Cutoff Relay. The power for this unit is tied into a lead coming out of the side-stand relay, which in turn gets a signal from the side stand switch. Most XS 11s do not have the sidestand switch. On just about every XJ I've head of, the side stand switch wears out and is no longer available from Yamaha. I unplugged the wiring connector, just below and to the rear of the gas tank (left side), and jumpered all 3 wires on the bike side of the connector together. (Made up a 3-way connector with 1/4 in female spade terminals and speaker wire.) This by-passes the side stand switch, equivalant to having the side stand always in the 'up' position. Note: the side-stand circuit is designed to disable the starting circuit if the side stand is down!

Another change is that the starting circuit is tied into a clutch switch, which is why the XJ has an extra pair of wires going into the clutch lever assembly. I screwed mine up trying to get it out; now have the two wires tied together permanently. Again, the circuit is designed to make you have the clutch lever pulled in and the sidestand up before the bike will crank over.

I've put a copy of the XJ wiring diagram on the web:

http://sopris.net\~fieldsj\e-mail\XJwireSM.PDF

Best I can suggest is start at the relay and work back, paying special attention to the side stand switch (a known problem!) and the related circuits.

When my side stand switch was going bad the bike would not crank, or crank intermittently. I unhooked the spring on the switch and manually moved the shaft back and forth while the key was on. I could hear the relay 'click' when the switch shaft makes contact, and the bike would crank/start. It appears the shaft moves to far forward when worn and the internal contacts no longer align. The circuit thinks the side stand is still in the down position.

Solenoid failure is rare on these bikes. Problems are usually in the battery cables, fuse holders, or sidestand switch. Hope this helps!

[Jerry]

Addendum...

Should have clarified this point....sidestand switch will not let the engine crank if the side stand is down and the bike is *not* in Neutral. (I.E. bike must be in Neutral when the side-stand is down and clutch lever must be pulled in for the crank circuit to work.) This brings the Neutral switch/wiring into the picture....

[tctenng]

I have had a very similiar problem on a GB750. It turned out to be a ground problem. The negative cable had corroded inside the cover and had enough resistance to cause all sorts of flakey problems.

Gregg

[Mark_E]

Done some diagnostics.....

So I've been working on tracing the voltage loss on my XJ and I found one or two things. First, a couple of years ago, before I replaced the battery, the charging system seemed to overcharge the battery and it would lose water. I put a bridge rectifier in the circuit just off the + post, before the Main Fuse. This dropped the voltage by up to a volt. I removed the B-R from the circuit and the relay was now getting up to 10.5v, up from 9-9.5v.

I also opened up the igition, start and switches and all the contacts look good. Voltages did not drop through these switches either. I then started at the battery and tried tracing all the componants to find a voltage drop but got stuck looking for the "terminal assembly". It's somewhere after the main fuse but I don't know what or where it is. Does anyone know?

So at any rate, with running up to 10.5v now and the solenoid clicks better, I'm content to use the bike as it is. I wouldn't mind knowing where volts are being lost but I don't know where all the componants are. Maybe I should take a photo of the bike with the tank off and have someone point out the location of them......

So if there's any comments I'll try them but for now I think I'll put 'er all back together.

Thanks for for all the comments and suggestions. They were all much appreciated and followed up in my diagnosis. And thanks Jerry for the schematic and info. I studied that thing for more than one hour.

Mark
E