Just K&N - need rejetting?

[3Phase]

I can't believe the lack of participation on this particular thread! Geez, a Final Drive swap creates rifts and chasms amongst us, but the air our bikes breathes seems to not interest folks much!

Okay, how much did you pay for a couple of neoprene weather strips and some fancy bent chicken wire holding an oily piece of granny's finest flannel cooking apron sandwiched between them?

I spiced up the thread with a new title for my post, so maybe that will get things moving a bit.

Just got back my Blackstone Labs oil analysis for the most recent oil change I did on my 2001 ZRX 1200. The oil tested was Motorcraft 15w-40 Diesel oil.

Send them another sample of the same oil, then compare and contrast the results. I've never used them but some folks call them 'Blackstoned'.

Send a couple samples of the oil to another lab, then compare and contrast the results.

Do you have a known-good VOA (Virgin Oil Analysis) that you can refer to for the Motorcraft 15w-40 (CI, CJ? C?) oil so that you can tell if the results of the UOA (Used Oil Analysis) actually make sense for your oil?

Finding a dependable lab that can make a reliable VOA and a reliable UOA so you can establish an accurate baseline for your engine might be a little expensive and time-consuming at first. Don't get obsessed!

The main point in sharing here is my silicon level was a 4, with universal averages for oil being 5.

This means with 4 pod filters allowing the carbs to suck unholy amounts of God's great air (that my beloved 80 SG could only dream of flowing) into that 125 hp/80 ft-lb torque of a beast-engine, the silicon readings are great. Insolubles were at a value of .2 and a value of >.7 is desired, so the oil fitler is doing it's job very well also.

That's a pretty good result with four strips of dirty apron for air filters.

Be careful with oil filters. An oil filter will filter a little better as it gets dirtier... right up until the point when it gets filled up with enough dirt that it can't flow oil and filter at the same time and goes into bypass.

With that said, I did the oil change at just over 4000 miles of use on the oil, and their averages are for 2500 miles between changes, so it's even more notable in terms of the low amount of silicon in my engine.

Every other wear metal was below wear averages (still keep in mind I ran a 4,010 mile OCI vs their averages are based on 2500 mile OCI's), and the bottom line is with just under 30,000 pod filter miles on that ZRX 1200 engine, it's doing just as good as a bike with a stock filter element in Blackstone's estimation. Yes, I asked them that question.

Hope this thread gets some more play, it will help folks shed some light on stuff.

Aww, come on, post the UOA! Or at least the numbers for:

SUS Viscosity
CSt Viscosity
Flashpoint
Fuel %
Antifreeze %
Water %
TBN

Antifreeze % is, of course, a first-line sanity check for any UOA done for air-cooled engines.

You're running lean jetting for your altitude in Colorado so you should have some pretty low fuel fuel dilution numbers. Keep in mind that Blackstone and some of the other labs make an educated guestimate of the amount of fuel dilution by measuring the flashpoint of the oil, not by measuring the amount of fuel in the oil. That's a different and more expensive test so the guestimate is usually close enough.

[Bonz]

Scotty,

Can't get the PDF of the UOA to load up to Photobucket, it sure would be NICE if a guy could just pull a file into the thread without all the gyrations! I'll try it again from the office in the morning.

What have you seen that would give pause to using Blackstone? Guess you must be a mite bit daffy for running that Wal Mart Super Tech stuff they call oil... You see where I'm going with that...

Why would Blackstone NOT be a wise choice?

We all know Super Tech oil is the stuff legends are made of, and Colombo is at least a legend, so take no offense. I run Super Tech and it's a dang fine oil in my XS. Just ran the Motorcraft 15w-40 in the ZRX cause not many cycle riders run it, and thought it would be cool to get some numbers to put up compared to all the Rotella, Delo, Actevo, MC specific oils, Super Tech, et al, etc that are out there. When I refilled the crankcase on the ZRX, I used Rotella 5w-40, and plan to do an analysis of it as well next summer when she hits the 4000 mile OCI.

I'm not gonna send a virgin sample, multiple samples, etc. Dumb use of more money than the $25 to test the sample I already sent in. There is a plethora of Blackstone analysis on the internet, and haven't seen any negative feedback, per se and that was a big factor in choosing them. Didn't do the TBN test, it was $10 extra and I'm interested in the wear and tear on the engine so TBN doesn't really play in that arena, other than if wear was abnormal, then I might have wished to have the TBN done. Gambled and won I guess, saved $10 and got a good report in my estimation. Good in the sense of probably being accurate, and also good in the information it gives me as a starting point to track engine wear in this engine.

In the meantime, here are the #'s...

Alum 12
Chromium 1
iron 13
copper 13
lead 4
tin 1
molybdenum 2
nickel 3
manganese 0
silver 0
titanium 0
potassium 0
boron 28
silicon 4
sodium 7
calcium 2397
magnesium 9
phosphorus 1060
zinc 1204
barium 0

Sustained viscosity, 210 F= 61.3 ( a bit low, but fuel was 1.0% so they thought that might have been the cause)
cST viscosity, 100 C = 10.58
Flashpoint 360 Fahrenheit.

Zero Antifreeze or H20, good since it's a liquid cooled engine.

Hope that info is fun to look at, it sure was fun to type in!

Can't wait to get a UOA done on the Super Tech 15w-40 I put in the 80 SG after the Rally, serious.

[Bonz]

Blackstone UOA follow up...

I emailed Blackstone with a question that 3Phase asked, and although I didn't get hard numbers, they said the Motorcraft 15w-40 sample I sent was very similar to the virgin sample of that oil they have on file, save for the slightly lower flashpoint and slightly lower viscosity of my oil.

They attributed those aspects to the shearing that goes on in a wet clutch and the 1% fuel content, both which would lower viscosity, and the flashpoint was a bit lower because of the fuel that added a bit of volatility.

Overall as I said in a previous post, the wear and tear the engine shows is the main thing, and regardless of what a virgin sample may show for a starting point, etc, the reality is the engine in my ZRX 1200 is doing very well at almost 30,000 miles.

I am interested in the 1% fuel content, as I just got back from a 175 mile ride and changed the oil as soon as I could get off the bike and do it. I did a dyno run and A/F a couple months ago, and the bike is running about 14:1 across the entire rpm range (very consistent) so I would not expect excess fuel, per se. Even though 1% isn't a lot, it still was more than what is considered average by a small amount. Any thoughts?

As well, I can't get the PDF file of the oil analysis to go over to photobucket. Any thoughts on that? Do I have to have a photo-type file format vs. PDF for photobucket to work?

[cywelchjr]

I emailed Blackstone with a question that 3Phase asked, and although I didn't get hard numbers, they said the Motorcraft 15w-40 sample I sent was very similar to the virgin sample of that oil they have on file, save for the slightly lower flashpoint and slightly lower viscosity of my oil.

They attributed those aspects to the shearing that goes on in a wet clutch and the 1% fuel content, both which would lower viscosity, and the flashpoint was a bit lower because of the fuel that added a bit of volatility.

Overall as I said in a previous post, the wear and tear the engine shows is the main thing, and regardless of what a virgin sample may show for a starting point, etc, the reality is the engine in my ZRX 1200 is doing very well at almost 30,000 miles.

I am interested in the 1% fuel content, as I just got back from a 175 mile ride and changed the oil as soon as I could get off the bike and do it. I did a dyno run and A/F a couple months ago, and the bike is running about 14:1 across the entire rpm range (very consistent) so I would not expect excess fuel, per se. Even though 1% isn't a lot, it still was more than what is considered average by a small amount. Any thoughts?

As well, I can't get the PDF file of the oil analysis to go over to photobucket. Any thoughts on that? Do I have to have a photo-type file format vs. PDF for photobucket to work?

1% fuel content seems WAY WAY WAY high. I could be wrong here, but something sounds fishy to me here. To me that level of fuel in the oil just doesn't make sense, as that means one teaspoon of fuel for each 99 teaspoons of oil in the engine, which is actually a lot of fuel in the oil of a running engine if you ask me. Are you sure they're not just guessing based on the flash point, which can be caused by other factors than just fuel in the oil, and could be giving a false high guess from other causes?

[Bonz]

Good question, Cy.

I've been emailing with the input you guys have been offering, and Blackstone has been good at getting me answers, so I shot them the question about how they calculate the fuel in oil measurement. I.E. I asked if it's a guess based on flashpoint or if they actually measure the fuel content.

With that said, what are other factors that reduce the flashpoint of oil? Additive's wearing out (I didn't have them do a TBN test)? Does oil that is sheared from the wet clutch (thus being thinner on the viscosity) have a lower flashpoint all other things being equal?

In the grand scheme, that ZRX is a pretty efficient bike in terms of gas mileage, 46-48 mpg on the same interstate/backroad riding that my 80 SG does 37-38 mpg for the same riding.

I agree with you Cy, I just don't associate fuel in the oil with a bike that runs so dang well, and has solid carbs with no float issues, etc. Especially after just getting back from the 175 mile ride.

Thanks in advance for any insights.

[Bonz]

Got an email back from Blackstone, see below... Helps to explain things I think. I did not use any oil additives. I do use Berryman's Chemtool or Seafoam every now and again in the gas tank.

Blackstone: "Fuel is found using a flashpoint test, and other solvents can cause the flashpoint to read low. Unless you had used oil additives or opened the engine for service and used some sort of cleaning solvent, the low flashpoint would be caused by fuel. The important thing to note is that 1.0% fuel dilution is a normal amount and that motorcycle engines are notorious for putting some fuel in the oil for whatever reason. Motorcycle engines are also known to shear the engine oil, so the bit of fuel did not likely cause the viscosity to lower. Your ZRX 1200 appears problem free at 29,011 miles."

I'd agree that my bike seems to be problem free! Looking forward to doing a UOA on the XS oil when it's ready to be changed next time. Interested if an old air cooled engine taxes the oil more in the 2500 mile OCI compared to the 4000 mile OCI with the liquid cooled ZRX.

[3Phase]

Howie! For file hosting on the 'net, LarryM (710) turned me on to Dropbox... you know, the diminutive just doesn't work for you. "Howard towered over his XS! (and everyone else at the Durango rally!)"

Howard, from what I've read, the latest Motorcraft 15w-40 is supposed to be pretty good stuff. For the last heat wave I gave up on the SuperTech 20w-50 and got an even better deal at NAPA on a gallon of Shell Rotella T straight 40 wt that had been ordered by mistake and abandoned by the customer.

Fuel dilution can be a lot of things besides an occasional can of Seafoam or Berrymans and a 175 mile trip before changing the oil might not burn out all of it. Using the enrichener (you can almost hear the fuel level dropping in the gas tank!); short rides that don't get the engine warmed up or keep the oil up to temperature long enough to boil out the fuel, and the usual carburetor cookoff when the bike is parked after the engine really is hot will both leave fuel in the oil.

There's nothing wrong with Blackstone that I know about. I am thinking about using them myself but I've read quite a few threads on a few different sites from people that got bizarre results on their UOA from Blackstone. Sometimes a retest cleared it up, sometimes it didn't, sometimes it just made it even more inscrutable. I've read similar posts from people that used other labs while I was lab-shopping so it's not just Blackstone. Stuff happens.


To get the most from oil testing, the oil that you use should be tested before it's used and it really doesn't make sense to do something like that for very small quantities. Ordering a VOA after every trip to Wallyworld for whatever is on sale at the time would be nuts so I'm planning ahead for the next year!

It looks like I can buy a six gallon case of oil for ~$55 to $75 so all of the oil I use in my XS for the next year will be from the same batch. One VOA will eliminate any ambiguity about production variations in the oil being tested in the UOAs.

On the sanity side: it won't take more than a few tests before it will be less hassle and expense to buy another engine or a parts bike and not worry about the oil unless there are too many sparkles, chunks, or an entire family of chipmunks in the drain pan.

[Bonz]

This time around I had a gallon of 5w-40 Rotella Synthetic hanging around the garage so I put it to use in the ZRX when I did the oil change. Looking forward to doing a UOA on it next year and see how a 5W-40 syn stacks up against the 15w-40 dino in terms of any more or less wear indicators in the engine along with viscosity, flashpoint, etc.

So you gave up on the Super Tech, eh? Just seemed to get used up more quickly in terms of shift quality, etc or what?

I wish I had thought of testing the XS oil after the Colorado rally in the grand scheme it was pretty severe conditions between the heat and altitude, meaning thin air doesn't cool as well as thick air, so the engine worked hard and stayed hot for a long time over a 1025 miles of use in 3 days. That oil had about 2500 miles on it when I got back from the rally, and with the glitchy shifting (more false neutrals than usual) and valve train noise I had during the rally at high temps, it was time to change the oil.

Have a good one, talk to you later!

[3Phase]

So you gave up on the Super Tech, eh?

No, I burned up a fresh fill of SuperTech 20W-50 in less than 300 miles when I pulled the long grade from Indio to Chiriaco Summit in the 110F afternoon heat on the way out to Arizona.

I got a great deal on the gallon of Rotella 40 wt. when I got back home but the oil companies do love their oil dearly so haven't decided what to use next.

[ManagerMike]

Just gotta add this, not that it has any real bearing (pun intended) on the testing of oils...I just finished tearing down one of the diesel engines from a retired shuttle in the stable I maintain, 320,000 miles at an esimated 24,000 engine hours (2005 MY), and the rod bearings and the crank bearings look like flippin new. Even the crank thrust bearings barely showed any scuffing.
Myself, I attribute this more to regular maintainance coupled with avoiding cheap or "economy" brand oils.
Bye the Bye, the 2008 models I keep that have a DPF exhaust and have had oil testing performed, return 6-8% fuel dilution at an average oil drain interval of 6500 miles, while this figure is likely higher than non DPF diesels of earlier vintage, it is within the accepted threshold of 11% dilution for diesel fueled engines. I'm sure the threshold must be much less for gasoline fueled engines (I don't know the figure) however, I don't see 1% as being of any concern.

[3Phase]

Mike, I avoid cheap oil too but inexpensive oil is fine if you pay attention to what you used and change it when it needs changing instead of going by time or mileage. The diesel fuel dilution numbers you got really aren't good and the low/ultra-low-sulphur diesel that's being phased in will tear up your engine but I'm not going to run off at the keyboard like some demented AMSOIL distributor. Use what's been working for you but watch that new fuel.

I'm pretty sure the SuperTech is a Group I oil with a good additive package. That's good enough for most water-cooled engines but an air-cooled engine will shear it down in 2,000 miles or less; much, much, less if you forget to check the weather report and start off riding in a cool ocean breeze but 60 miles down the road it's well over the century mark before you even hit the grade up into the desert.

Oil. Cooler.

With the cost of a fill of good oil coming really close to the cost of a used XS11 engine it's hard to decide whether I should change the oil or change the engine.

Rotella T1 monograde should be a good Group II oil and it'll work just fine here in Southern California. I owned a Chevy Corvair for ten years. I put over half a million miles on it with straight 40wt oil, 30 wt in the winter when I lived in the mountains and if you think pulling and synchronizing the carburetors on an XS or XJ is fun almost everything you do to a Corvair means R&R a ~450 lb drive train, then synchronize and adjust all four carburetors again (and again) before you're done.