Rainy day blues

[B.B.]

Ok Greg so you are saying to jump the blue/white wire with the positive side of the battery.

[BA80]

Yes. That should actuate the solenoid and engage the starter. You can do it with a screwdriver. Jump from the battery connection on the solenoid to the solder connection on the solenoid for the blue/white wire. They are less than an inch apart.

[B.B.]

Yes. That should actuate the solenoid and engage the starter. You can do it with a screwdriver. Jump from the battery connection on the solenoid to the solder connection on the solenoid for the blue/white wire. They are less than an inch apart.

ok when i do this do i need to push the starter button or should it try and start without touching the button

[BA80]

Pushing the start button will make absolutely no difference either way. The button just grounds and actuates a relay that sends power to that wire on the solenoid. But, only if the kill switch is closed.

You bypass all that by jumping the solenoid.

[BA80]

That explanation may not be absolutely correct but I know it works from experience.

[B.B.]

Ok cool I am going to try it tomorrow. Since i have you on here tonight. What does it mean if it cranks doing it that way or if it doesn't crank what would I look to next either way? if you not what im getting at.

[BA80]

If it cranks that way then you need to check all your connectors for the start button and solenoid. And the kill switch and starter button operation.

If that doesn't work do what Don said and jump across the 2 large connections on the solenoid. That will be a direct connection from the battery to the starter motor and if the motor is good and the cables are making good contact, it will spin

If it worked before, the wet has probably caused a partially corroded connection to be too corroded to work. These scoots are 3 decades old and the electrical connectors/connections are one of the most vulnerable points for failure.

[DGXSER]

Yes jumping the large lugs tells you if the starter itself is bad. Removes the solenoid from the circuit, it also tells you that if it does work, then it is possible the solenoid itself is bad.

As to taking a wire form the battery post on the solenoid to the blue/white wire lug, Not something I have tried BA80, and still not something I recommend anyone try. Looking at the wiring diagram, the blue/white wire is the ground path for the low side of the solenoid.

For B.B benefit, a solenoid is basically a coil of wire with a metal piece in the middle. the "LOW" side is the smaller wires, lower amp draw, and the coil side. All the switches in the system on our bikes are on the low side. So power from the battery goes to two places, that big connection on your solenoid, and the main fuse. After the main fuse it goes to the key switch. One of the wires that get voltage when you turn the key to on goes to three of your fuses, that tan wire you see on three of them. the Ignition fuse sends the power to your E-stop switch on the right handlebar, when that switch is in the run position, it will then send power to the R/W wire on the solenoid. So you have power going to the coil inside the solenoid, but it needs a ground path to complete the curcuit. Thats the blue/white wire, it goes to your starter button. Only when you hold the starter button in does it complete the ground path. When it does that, it creates a magnetic charge on the coil that pulls the metal center and the end of that metal center connects the two large bolts allowing voltage to flow directly from the battery to the starter motor. When you release the starter button, there is no ground path, so the solenoid coil has no magnetic charge and the metal core goes back and no longer connects the two large lugs, no more starter turning. Yes I simplified the internals of the solenoid a little, but effectively how it works.

So putting the current directly to the blue/white connector from the battery should be the same as putting a wire from your positive terminal on the battery to the frame grounding it. Only difference is, the starter button is there to interupt the ground, so pushing the starter button completes the path grounding out your battery. Not something I recommend. So while I have not tried it, I see no way it should work unless something is screwed up in your wiring somewhere as you still have no path to ground.

The other tests I suggested will isolate where your problem is, with no chance of shorting out your battery.

[James England]

Basically, a solenoid is an electro-magnetic switch which allows a big-demand component like a starter motor, to be turned on and off without burning up the little contacts on the starter button.. When the two thin wires put current into it (via pressing the starter button), the magnet operates and pulls two heavy duty copper contacts together which then allow current to go through the thick wires to power up the starter motor. When you let go of the starter button, the magnet stops working and the heavy duty contacts spring apart and no more current goes to the starter motor.

The reason you can't just have a starter button connected directly to the starter motor is that the starter draws so much current that it would burn out the weedy little contacts on the starter button, so it's done indirectly throught the hefty contacts of the solenoid. Even then, they get dirty and pitted and slightly burned over the years but they are easily fixed.

There are threads here about taking the solenoid apart and repairing/renovating it. I've done 4 of them. So long as the thin wires still make the electro-magnet operate (coil), then you can easily clean up the big contacts.

[DGXSER]

James,

The other reason for the solenoid is safety, keeps our human delicate fingers isolated to low amps and not around the connection when the big wires get connected by the solenoid. So if there is a short of some kind, we only get a little shock and not a big one, in theory anyway. Otherwise, they could simply put a momentary contact switch under the side cover that pokes through it for you to push.

[BA80]

Yes jumping the large lugs tells you if the starter itself is bad. Removes the solenoid from the circuit, it also tells you that if it does work, then it is possible the solenoid itself is bad.

As to taking a wire form the battery post on the solenoid to the blue/white wire lug, Not something I have tried BA80, and still not something I recommend anyone try. Looking at the wiring diagram, the blue/white wire is the ground path for the low side of the solenoid.

Study that diagram a little more DG and you will see tha that wire goes through the ignition relay relay before it goes up to the button. With the relay open (ign. switch off) that wire is grounded and needs power to actuate the solenoid. At that point you can jump it from the battery to actuate it and turn the engine over and it may even start and run until remove the jumper because the solenoid will be sending voltage to the coils.

With the relay closed (ign. switch on) it has power to it and uses the starter button to complete the circuit with a ground. At that point you can jump that wire to ground and start the engine.

[crazy steve]

Study that diagram a little more DG and you will see tha that wire goes through the ignition relay relay before it goes up to the button...

Sorry Greg, Don's right; the blue/white wire doesn't go anywhere except to the starter button, which completes the circuit to ground when pushed. If yours goes someplace else, it's not OEM.

[BA80]

If that's true Steve why doesn't the start button work all the time, even when the ignition is off? Magic?

Do yourself a favor and get your test light out and check. With the key off that wire is ground, key on it's power.

Granted the blue wire is fed by the red ignition wire when the key is on and it doesn't run through the relay per say but is fed by it.

[DGXSER]

If that's true Steve why doesn't the start button work all the time, even when the ignition is off? Magic?

Because with the key off, the magic smoke is not getting to the solenoid in the first place. It's a series of gates to get through, main fuse, then key switch, ignition fuse, e-stop on right bar. If ANY of those are not closed, the smoke can not get through. If there is no magic smoke getting to the solenoid or the blue white wire, then the starter button can not let any through to ground and energize the coil.

Do yourself a favor and get your test light out and check. With the key off that wire is ground, key on it's power.

Key off, that wire is still not ground until you push the starter button, it just does nothing.

Key on, e-stop switch on, all fuses in place, you will have 12 volts all the way to where the blue white wire meets the starter button. That is now the gate keeper stopping the flow of the magic smoke to ground. ( in essence, back to the negative terminal of the battery). Turn the key switch to off, or turn the e-stop to either side, or pull either main or ignition fuse, and no magic smoke gets to the blue white wire, or the red white wire on the positive side of the solenoid either.

[BA80]

Well, I have been checking as we talked here and what I'm saying is fact. Maybe B.B. has just had all the magic smoke escape. Why don't you go ahead and fix him up with some Don.