Dremel fix or washer placement

[Nubian]

I have been doing some research on this site in regards to the 2nd gear fix. Some say it's a big job others think not, my first impression is that it is indeed a big job (flipping bike upside down etc...) for me anyway and having to locate and ID gears. I look at the picture of an open tranny and I get . Dremel fix vs relocating a washer. Which is the better fix are they one in the same or do both have to be performed. Is one easier than the other. There was talk of new gears from Yamaha correcting this problem still being available. Is that still the case? I imagine they are overpriced or else we wouldn't bother with this fix. I found a great post by TC detailing the dremel fix but none for the washer relocating. I will be splitting my case soon and wanted to address that while i'm in there.

[crazy steve]

You'll get multiple opinions on this, with some swearing by the washer fix, some not liking the extra wear it puts on a c-clip. As to the dremel fix, same thing there; some like it, some don't. And yes, you can still get new gears from Yamaha with the improvement built-in, but they're not cheap; roughly $100 per gear. My take is that the 'dremel fix' is for actually repairing a problem, the washer swap is a preventitive measure, so you wouldn't do both.

But do you need to do these 'fixes'? If you're not having any shifting issues, I'd say no. There's a lot of bikes out there, some with lots of miles, that have never had any trans problems. If you're splitting the cases, you'll have to make the judgement call whether or not it's something you need to do, but if the gears look good and you've had no issues, I wouldn't do it as a preventive measure...

[Nubian]

You'll get multiple opinions on this, with some swearing by the washer fix, some not liking the extra wear it puts on a c-clip. As to the dremel fix, same thing there; some like it, some don't. And yes, you can still get new gears from Yamaha with the improvement built-in, but they're not cheap; roughly $100 per gear. My take is that the 'dremel fix' is for actually repairing a problem, the washer swap is a preventitive measure, so you wouldn't do both.

But do you need to do these 'fixes'? If you're not having any shifting issues, I'd say no. There's a lot of bikes out there, some with lots of miles, that have never had any trans problems. If you're splitting the cases, you'll have to make the judgement call whether or not it's something you need to do, but if the gears look good and you've had no issues, I wouldn't do it as a preventive measure...

I am having issues, 2nd gear and it's very annoying trying to move between gears putting it in neutral at stop lights etc.....

[crazy steve]

If it shifts ok and the problem is it pops out of gear when you let out the clutch and/or apply power, then you're a candidate for the dremal fix or new gears. At this point, the washer fix is no help. And once you've done this, you don't need the washer fix; that mod is to give deeper engagement of 2nd gear with OEM gears. The 'fix' or the improved replacement gears don't need this.

But if your problem is the actual shift, i.e. it doesn't want to go into gear, look at your shift mechanism. A worn/damaged shift pin or shift drum, or worn/bent shift fork can be the cause there.

[Nubian]

If it shifts ok and the problem is it pops out of gear when you let out the clutch and/or apply power, then you're a candidate for the dremal fix or new gears. At this point, the washer fix is no help. And once you've done this, you don't need the washer fix; that mod is to give deeper engagement of 2nd gear with OEM gears. The 'fix' or the improved replacement gears don't need this.

But if your problem is the actual shift, i.e. it doesn't want to go into gear, look at your shift mechanism. A worn/damaged shift pin or shift drum, or worn/bent shift fork can be the cause there.

2nd gear is the only problem I have shifting into, If it doesn't catch I have to lower rpm to engage.

[Nubian]

How many labor hours does this job average out to be combined with my starter clutch repair?

[mrdigitech]

Well....

For some reason through all my readings about the 2nd gear fix I missed this washer placement option.

I've been having 2nd gear issues that I thought would require the dremmel fix but, maybe not.

My main issue is getting into 2nd gear. I have a heal-toe shifter and often (once the bike is warm) have issues getting into 2nd gear. I'll hit my heal down and I see my neutral light come on, hit it again and neutral light goes off then on. I will sometimes have to do this up to 3 times before 2nd gear fully engages.

I cant recall if it has ever popped out of 2nd gear, just misses it all together. If I don't pay attention to the neutral light I'll hit the throttle and VROOM!! and I coast till I hit my shifter a time or two.

Is there a tech tip somewhere for the washer placement?

Thanks!!

[bikerphil]

Diagram for washer swap...

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...er+swap&page=2

[crazy steve]

Sounds to me like both of you have the same problem, and it's not something either the dremel or washer fix will cure. I'll repeat; you have shifter mechanism problems, not gear problems.

Now, I'll be honest and admit I haven't done any of these repairs, as my bikes haven't exhibited any trans problems. So I don't know the labor time, but I think it will depend on what you find. There's a 'star' washer that retains the shift pins, if it's damaged or broken that could be your whole problem. A fairly simple fix, as it's under the shifter cover, and I believe the part is still available. If it's a shift drum or fork issue, that's more involved I think. Do a search, you'll get hits...

[CatatonicBug]

I've done the 2nd gear fix several times, on several bikes. NONE of them did I flip the bike. Too much work IMO. The centerstand is just fine, and I don't mind laying on the ground under the bike to do the work. I also did the washer swap on all but one of the 2nd gear fixes I have done. As far as I can see, cutting the gears cuts away the case hardening on the gears, weakening the gears a bit. The washer swap is an added measure to help force the gears together, encouraging a solid fit, discouraging the gears from rounding off again. If I was to do another dremel fix, I would do the washer swap at the same time. It takes no additional time or effort, and except for the possible effects that Steve mentioned, it seems to have worked well for everyone that has done it.

The 2nd gear fix will take about 6+ hours for a novice, if you follow the directions on this site and have all the tools and materials available before you start. I can do it in under 4 hours, start to finish, but only because I don't need to read the directions along the way.

[SFerinTEXAS]

I am having issues, 2nd gear and it's very annoying trying to move between gears putting it in neutral at stop lights etc.....

putting it in neutral at stop lights should be avoided when possible. Going from neutral with the engine running actually contributes to gear slip. Was talked about quite a bit years ago but not so much lately. Except for initial cold start my bike doesn't see a neutral light until the next cold start on one trip. Just hold clutch in first at a light or restarting when already warm

[CatatonicBug]

putting it in neutral at stop lights should be avoided when possible. Going from neutral with the engine running actually contributes to gear slip. Was talked about quite a bit years ago but not so much lately. Except for initial cold start my bike doesn't see a neutral light until the next cold start on one trip. Just hold clutch in first at a light or restarting when already warm

+1 to that! Definite safety no-no. You want to keep an eye in your mirror and be ready to drop the clutch and scoot if a dump truck comes barreling down on you!

[jetmechmarty]

What Steve said is true. "Dremel fix" or "washer move" will not fix your bike if it won't go into gear. The fix is for when the dogs won't engage the slots. It starts by popping out of gear and regresses to just clatter after shifting into second.

I noted that Steve says he never had a problem with his bike. I am convinced that it is because he uses the proper method of shifting this machine. I believe you can use an XS11 for drag racing, hook up a turbo, and never have a problem so long as you shift it properly. Shifts must be firm and deliberate. You can't be lazy about it.

As I say that, I'll note that 2nd went out in mine. I replaced the gears with new and performed the "washer move" at the same time. I'm trying to be more careful with it now, by paying attention to what I'm doing. I was able to source the four new gears for about $200 after careful shopping.

I saved a post by Trbig, on the washer move as a word document. It was the best description I've seen and includes photos.

[motoman]

I'll repeat; you have shifter mechanism problems, not gear problems.

+1 what Steve said........that would be the first thing to check by pulling the shift cover.......and if you haven't ridden one of these very much you cannot know the proper shifting technique......takes practice......and a heel-toe shifer is the worst way to get all in sync and correct pressure for a smooth and firm shift. When you get it right, should NOT even be felt that a shift was made. If it ends up associated with the dogs/slots, as Bug said, upside down is the hardest and PITA way of doing the fix.........gravity is your friend in this case.....

[SFerinTEXAS]

I agree don't look for 1 answer. I know my XJ has a problem with 1ST gear but compared to my SF this is not the only problem. Not going into the XJ to fix 1ST gear alone but to fix everything involved. Or don't go in. I'm going. But not leaving unless done.