Difference Between Tube and Tubeless Wheels

[cywelchjr]

My Father had an XS 11 Tubeless rims just like mine but in 86 took it to his friend that had a small Harley shop to order and replace tires. They ordered the tire online and when it came in they took the tires off and mounted the new ones. They had real dificulty mounting the tires getting the beed even but did not really look for a reason. The tires mounted inflated balanced ok and next step was to test ride. Everything was fine till father got up to about 60 and the rear blew loose from rim. Father was thrown clear from a flipping bouncing in the end fireball. The problem is

Tube type tires will mount on Tubeless Rims just fine but can blow off rim with any speed.

Really. They ordered tires online in 86 huh? That's a good one. There was no online in 86, other that BBS systems which were all hobbiest systems, with very few multi line systems starting to show up, but nobody doing e-commerce, as there was no such thing yet. Credit cards were still processed by hand back then. Something about this story smells to me. The facts as reported don't make sense.

And yes, I was actually involved in the first of the national communications networks. I was personally involved in the systems that were moving early email via dialup from coast to coast overnight, by hopping from system to system. I actually knew the guy who started Fidonet (and wrote the software by that name) and was involved in two alternate networks that pre-dated the internet, so I'm not talking about what someone told me, I was THERE.

[jwhughes3]

I think he meant special ordered..

Ordered via catalog or phone - but its a natural thing to substitute a familiar phrase to simplify telling a story...I don't think he meant to mislead anyone.

I agree I only remember using BBS from 80 until about 90/91 when AOL & Prodigy began offering news content.

John

[cywelchjr]

Ordered via catalog or phone - but its a natural thing to substitute a familiar phrase to simplify telling a story...I don't think he meant to mislead anyone.

I agree I only remember using BBS from 80 until about 90/91 when AOL & Prodigy began offering news content.

John

However, using terminology that is so clearly incorrect makes one wonder about the rest of the story, especially when it's written in such a sensational manner.

I will agree it's dangerous to mount a tube type tire on a tubeless rim without a tube (but only if without a tube) because the bead is not designed to hold a seal and is likely to not hold said seal, and will then cause a flat, and not just a high speed either, but put a tube in it and it's perfectly safe, every bit as safe as a tubeless tire would be, just a bit heavier because you have a tube in it.

That said, assuming that everything but the ONLINE thing happened (meaning a catalog order), the guy with the shop should have known better. IMHO it was his job to know better.

[ViperRon]

Correction

On the phone line was what I meant to type guys refering to phone. I was interupted in the middle of typing and it just slipped by in review. I will be sure to read every word from now on. What I wanted to point out is the importance of the information here as two grown men in their late 50's one of which was a mechanic running a shop easily created this problem by not checking the tire was not labled tubless. True all good mechanics check tires but some people here having never dealt with the difference may let the thought pass right by. Since the time was taken to post pictures and give the information I thought I'd help by pointing out what to expect if the tube type tire is put on the wrong rim.

[cywelchjr]

On the phone line was what I meant to type guys refering to phone. I was interupted in the middle of typing and it just slipped by in review. I will be sure to read every word from now on. What I wanted to point out is the importance of the information here as two grown men in their late 50's one of which was a mechanic running a shop easily created this problem by not checking the tire was not labled tubless. True all good mechanics check tires but some people here having never dealt with the difference may let the thought pass right by. Since the time was taken to post pictures and give the information I thought I'd help by pointing out what to expect if the tube type tire is put on the wrong rim.

Ok, phone order makes the entire story make sense and hold together. That said, the problem isn't a tube type tire on a tubeless rim. It's a tube type tire without a tube, they don't hold air, as they weren't designed to. And when the air gets out, they come off the rim. Tube type tires are designed to be held on the rim by air pressure, where tubeless fit tightly so as to make sure they don't leak.

So, I take back what I said, since it was a terminology mistake cause by distraction, which makes it cool. It just made me wonder about the whole thing, even though I know that the premise is correct, that a tube type tire without a tube WILL fail, and it doesn't even take high speed to make it do it, that was probably just coincidence and timing. It very likely would have failed even if he had kept it slow, it would have just taken a bit longer.

[Eveready1100]

They had real dificulty mounting the tires getting the beed even but did not really look for a reason. The tires mounted inflated balanced ok and next st

I can't see how a tyre with air in it could possibly come off the rim, but that quote makes me wonder if they'd put a 17" tyre on a 16" wheel. That would make it hard to get the bead even, and maybe come off when you hit a bump in the road. Maybe.

[Jerry]

As has been noted (and has been on prevous threads on this topic) the profile at the side of the rim, where the tire bead meets the side of the rim, is different between the tube and tubeless rims.

There is also a difference in the construction of the tire. Tubeless tires tend to have lighter and more flexible sidewalls, and often have reduced rolling resistance when compared to a tube-type tire of otherwise equal specifications. The bead area is, most often, constructed differently between the two styles. Tubeless tires tend to have more reinforcement material in the bead area.

The danger of using tubeless tires on tube-type rims (other than sealing the rim lock holes) is that in low-pressure situations the tubeless tire on a tube-type rim is more likely to break the bead between the tire and rim.

Think about that for a moment, and consider that if you get a puncture in a tubelss tire on a tubeless rim, the tire is more likely to stay beaded and let you come to a controlled stop. The same tubeless tire on a tube rim may suddenly dis-bead and flop from side to side, making an otherwise controllable stop into a white knuckle affair.

I guess the question is, "Do you feel lucky?" Best bet, from a safety perspective, is to to use the suggested combination: tubes in rims not marked as suitable for tubeless tires, and tubeless on those rims that are marked for tubeless use. Sure, you can do otherwise, but understand there are additional safety risks in doing so.

Short history note:

Tubeless tires were first marketed for cars in the mid-to-late '40s, and by then most manufacturers were promoting "safety" rims suitable for tubeless tire use. Tubeless tires came much later to foreign cars, motorcycles, and other modes of transportation. When it did, those manufacturers followed the same path as the auto manufactuers had taken and began equipping vehicles with the "safety" rims. (Sometimes called the J-rim.)

"They originally had a J designation stamped on them to signify they had a single 'safety' bead, the aim of which was to retain the tire on the rim if it deflated. These rims have a visible raised bead near the lip that the tyre 'pops' over to seal against the rim edge. They will have stamping something like ROH 14J 5 (or similar) which will be the manufacturer, diameter, J for safety and then the rim width. With the use of tubeless radials they went to double safety beads, I think in the 70s (?) with are designated JJ (e.g. ROH 14JJ 5) which have the raised safety bead on each side of the rim. Most build standards now require JJ rims."

Have a good day!

[cywelchjr]

As has been noted (and has been on prevous threads on this topic) the profile at the side of the rim, where the tire bead meets the side of the rim, is different between the tube and tubeless rims.

Correct when referencing the front wheel as confirmed by Crazy Steve. But Crazy Steve has compared the tube and tubeless rear wheels to each other (he has both) and the rim locks are the only difference, the profile of the side of the rims are the same on both, with both being clearly made in the same casting molds. As mentioned, this is NOT true of the front wheel, where the profile of the side of the rim IS different, and likely will not grip the tire bead the same as the tubeless rim will.

[crazy steve]

Jerry, I'll have to disagree with you on a couple of your points...

Tire construction; tube tires usually have the lighter sidewall. The big difference is the tubeless tire has the 'tube' built into the tire, having a 'extra' inner liner to retain the air. That's why when you fit a tubeless tire with a tube you have to downgrade the speed rating, as the additional thickness of the tire/tube combo retains more heat.

As to the danger of a tubeless tire losing it's seal on a 'tube' rim, that depends. On the XS wheels, the rears are exactly the same except for the 'rim lock' holes on the 'tube' wheel and the lack of the stamped 'suitable for tubeless' marking. There is a difference on the fronts however, and I'll fully agree that using the tube-type XS front rim with a tubeless tire is not something I'd do.

The most interesting part when I looked at the XS wheels was the lack of that 'safety bead' on the 'tubeless' wheels, as I expected to find it. Even the laced 'tube-only' wheels on my other bikes have that safety bead, so that was surprising. Why/how Yamaha marked these as tubeless, I can't say...

[Jerry]

I stand corrected on the rear wheels.

Interestingly, I found a reference to split rims being used on motorcycles. Anyone know if this is true?

[TomRodgers]

FWIW...

Just had new tires mounted on my 80 Standard. Not sure if they were stock rims or not. have NO idea.

However, the ONLY stamp on the outside of the front rim is the YAMAHA JAPAN casting.

When i purchased the tires (CONTI GO's), the shop where i bought them had to drill out the rim from a tube type to fit a tubeless valve stem. same with the rear.

[crazy steve]

FWIW...When i purchased the tires (CONTI GO's), the shop where i bought them had to drill out the rim from a tube type to fit a tubeless valve stem. same with the rear.

That was due to change in the design of the 'standard' replacement valve stem, not because either wheel is tube or tubeless; both have the same size hole from the factory. I had to do the same thing....