oil in number one cylinder

[chewie123]

hey everyone,

nice to be back, even though its always when something is wrong with the bike... what started as a project to remove the rust and paint my headers has turned into a more ambitious project. i noticed my number one cylinder was completely soaking wet with oil when i removed the exhaust. the bike wasnt running so hot at the end of the season, it wouldnt even start when i tried to take it out one last time. i thought it was just the carbs like usual with this bike, but now i think its time to address the oil that has always been present in the engine, the plugs are always wet when i pull em and its been smoking quite a bit (white) at the end when i was riding it.

i assume the oil leaking in is either the valve seals or the piston rings can anyone confirm this? i have never taken the top end apart aside from replacing the valve cover gasket. any and all thoughts or advice on this would be awesome. i dont want to get in over my head. i have the service manual, looks like i will need a valve spring compressor to replace the seals, but besides that it looks pretty manageable.

thanks for the help in advance.

c

[DAVINCI]

If you have a compression gauge, do a test, then pour a teaspoon of motor oil in the cylinder and re-test. if the compression number improves after the oil, it's rings. If the numbers don't improve, then it's valve seals.

[psycoreefer]

or its both, IMHO if you're going to take it down far enough to hone it and put rings in it then you'd be silly not to put in new valve seals and at a minimum re-lap the valves.

[DAVINCI]

That wasn't the question

[cywelchjr]

That wasn't the question

For someone who is new here your acting pretty arrogant. When a question is asked here, we don't just answer the obvious question, but also usually try to answer the ones logical to follow on, like "if it's the rings should I do the valves anyways" which is the question psychoreefer was addressing since you had already addressed the direct question.

Plus, your only sort of right, as the oil could NOT increase compression and it could STILL be the rings, as the ring responsible for keeping you from burning oil is NOT the same as the one responsible for keeping the compression up.

In addition, one generally only checks with the oil if the compression is low (on one of more cylinders), but not too often if compression is good.

A better indicator of what is causing oil usage/burning is the pattern. Does it smoke more on startup and then go away, and is it worse if you decelerate then accelerate again? Rings will tend to smoke all the time, where valve seals will tend to smoke on startup after sitting for while, and after deceleration when taking off again as the oil gets sucked in through the valves, where constant smoke tends to be the oil ring not wiping the oil off the cylinder on the downstroke.

Taking the time to be a bit more polite will make people more likely to pay attention to you, and anybody can tell you I'm not always the most polite person around, but you struck even me a quite rude.

[DAVINCI]

I don't see what 'being new here" has to do with a basic question about internal combustion engines. Do engines here on this forum somehow work on different principles than they have for over 100 years? I perceive that YOU are the arrogant one, unless you have serviced / diagnosed / rebuilt more engines then me since 1969.

And, BTW, the oil test does not discriminate between rings, it will affect ALL of the rings and so it will affect the result of a compression test.

[11Rider]

Oh brother

[SFerinTEXAS]

Bad Form. To chewie123 . You will get no one answer here. You will still have to sort them out. Lots to learn from all but you will have to find out for yourself.
And when you do does not mean that is the answer for all that ask the same question. Use the search function often and sort through the results. You will learn alot even if not about your problem. But another you most likely will have.


The search function is not over rated nor stressed enough and is not used enough. IMHO .

PEACE

To DAVINCI. Don't get riled , that's the way it works here

[DGXSER]

Hey Chewie, Another brother in the Nati' here. Myself and another member DBeardslee (also a native and resident of the Nati') have taken these engines down and put back before. So feel free to ask away and we even travel and help others work on them now and then. I work cheap, to, mostly just cost you putting up with my dumb questions and jokes.

As to your questions. First of all, are you sure it is oil they are soaked in and not gasoline? Also, does it smoke all the time it is running or just on first start up, then goes away after a mile or ten? If it goes away that tends to be valve seals, if not that is more likely to be rings.

The compression check with oil has never steered me wrong on figuring out rings or valve issues on an engine. As stated, put a tablespoon or two of engine oil in a cylinder, and recheck the compression on that cylinder. Repeat on all four, add oil, check compression then move on.

As to removing the head, which you will need to do for the valve seals, it is not that tough at all. And I have a cheater tool to remove the valves (donated to me by Dbeardslee) that works well with a magnet and LARGE C-clamp. So, it can be done and you have plenty of local knowledge and help if needed.

Another option to keep in mind is that a used engine for these bikes can be had for $200 typically, so before you go putting to much money into this one, you may want to think about other options.

[chewie123]

Hey guys,

thanks for the quick responses! the bike was smoking a lot on start up and then would go away during the ride, so i guess that means i should direct my attention to the valves first, which is OK with me cause it seems like an easier and cheaper job. i think it might be a combo of gas and oil actually, i do have gas in my air filters, which i think comes from a leaky petcock which will also be getting fixed soon as well as a carb rebuild...again,(even though i put in an in line fuel shut off and new valve needles). and the leaky petcock is on the left side, so that would explain why its the no.1 cylinder? i have a compression gauge in the mail right now, so im going to do a check before i start tearing into anything, but ive read up a lot on removing the valve seals and i think im going to mock up one of those little pieces to use along with the c clamp when i get to that stage. another thing is anyone know where i can buy just the head and valve cover gasket? also, should i run some sea foam through this thing? maybe that would be a good alternative to replacing the rings?

im a little more concerned if i need to do the rings....would i need to go ahead and replace all of them? that seems like a lot of work and $...and i would need to get a special tool i think right? i will worry about that after the compression test...

DGXSER, i wish i was still in the 'nati! i just moved to brooklyn in the fall for a job. the riding up here is not as nice. i miss the ride to rabbit hash. i could use some bbq and an ale81 right now...

[DiverRay]

anyone know where i can buy just the head and valve cover gasket?

The cheap way is get a COMPLETE set for the gaskets. The Yamaha head gasket alone is about $50, but a complete set with new valve seals and everything is about $87! I do not know who is "cheapest" at the moment, but ebay or online store is probably your best bet.
The "extra" fuel that has been running through the engine may be part of the oil you see. Fixing the floats, seats, and fuel petcocks should take care of that.
When you do a compression test, remember to pull all 4 spark plugs, and hold the throttle wide open, or remove the carbs. Don't worry about doing the test on a "warm" engine, as even cold you can see if all 4 are within 10% of each other.

[DGXSER]

Bummer on the move, but we all know you have to go where the work is these days. Used to work for Cinergy (back when it was Cinergy) and did alot of work down at the plant near Rabbit Hash. Only place I've seen int he last ten years where pigs , dogs, and chickens are running around in the street, and the general store still looks like a scene out of a western movie, wood floor and all. That can be a cool ride, btu then Rte 8 is where I crashed last spring, so not a good road for me these days!

I'd start by going through the carbs. I'm thinking your seeing fuel more than oil. Understand that the petcocks only keep fuel from flowing TO the carbs, not INTO the carbs. The float needle valve stops the flow INTO the carbs. Excess fuel flowing into the carbs is how you get fuel int he air box. And if you have that occur, besure to check your engine oil for the presence of gas as it could go into the cylinders and dump into the oil pan. Oil thinned by gasoline does not do a good job of lubricating bearings.

Make sure your rebuild includes new float needle valves and seats. then be sure to carefully set your float levels. After you get the carbs set up, see if the smoke and wet plugs still occurs. If it does, then look into the valve seals. Parts-n-more always used to carry a nice full gasket set for the engine at a cheap price. And BTW, sometimes the XJ 1100 gasket set is cheaper than the XS. It is the exact same gaskets, except the XJ head gasket has the extra part for the YICS ports. You can just cut that off and use the gasket.

[windjammergump]

white smoke

is usually gas not oil.....i agree with that

[chewie123]

hey guys,

i should have mentioned i have rebuilt the carbs multiple times in the past and still had wet plugs. im going to give it a go one more time and raise the floats, get new needles (all the needles have a line on them), etc...also the jet needle clip was set one down from the middle towards the 'rich' end so what yall think, put it in the standard position, or move it up one towards the lean side? another thing about the jet needle is all of them are worn with scrapes where it has been rubbing over the years, should i rotate these so that there is a fresh side of the needle making contact or should i get new jet needles? 4 rebuild kits = $$, so im trying to avoid that if possible. i was thinking this and with the floats raised slightly would lean it out a bit. also going to get a new petcock (any suggestions besides ebay?) , i tried a rebuild kit with that before and it didnt work...sometimes i with they had just put a dang off position on those guys...

[Rasputin]

hey guys,

i should have mentioned i have rebuilt the carbs multiple times in the past and still had wet plugs. im going to give it a go one more time and raise the floats, get new needles (all the needles have a line on them), etc...also the jet needle clip was set one down from the middle towards the 'rich' end so what yall think, put it in the standard position, or move it up one towards the lean side? another thing about the jet needle is all of them are worn with scrapes where it has been rubbing over the years, should i rotate these so that there is a fresh side of the needle making contact or should i get new jet needles? 4 rebuild kits = $$, so im trying to avoid that if possible. i was thinking this and with the floats raised slightly would lean it out a bit. also going to get a new petcock (any suggestions besides ebay?) , i tried a rebuild kit with that before and it didnt work...sometimes i with they had just put a dang off position on those guys...

I have always had the best luck with the floats set at factory settings, but if your plugs are wet there is something not right so try raising them a bit (meaning when inverted on the workbench not installed which would be lowered).
Every time someone plays with the needle jet height it comes back to setting them in the middle slot! Never seems to fail.
Worn jet needles will give you no end of trouble so if they show visible signs then change them out.
You can make an off position on 78E petcocks if you want. Therre is a thread about it and I did it. Now I have a positive off when I park it for longer periods.
Some rebuild kits it seems have the wrong length on the petcock diaphragm. I have not yet run into this with any kits I have purchased but that is what I hear.
Keep at it and you will win. My bikes use oil every spring when I first use them. It always goes away after a couple hundred miles. I have had this issue since my 79SF was brand new. Run it a while and see if it quits, after you make sure the carbs are not leaking. Gas in the oil is very bad for engines of any kind and if yours are leaking. Do the petcock off position repair you will love it.