frozen oil filter bolt

[Larrym]

Fear and Forearms:

Hi Larry,
yeah, Steptoe's file fix will work once you've got that stubborn bastard out of there.
But it don't fix the root problem, that the hex is too small in the first place, which is why it rounded off instead of coming out.

'Lo Fred,

I question things like whether the hex rounded off because it was "too small".

My reasoning is that the smaller bolts/nuts usually have lower torque settings per the manual. Provided that the owner is in possession of the manual AND reads it to find the proper torque for that particular bolt is only 23 foot pounds...

Then why do people torque it to the point where it takes 50-75 foot pounds to loosen it???

My suspicion is that folks don't have/read the torque specs. The natural thing to do is to torque it down like it was a lug nut on a russian tractor in the hopes that whatever the bolt is holding (the oil filter in this case...) won't leak. More is better, right? REEF on it to ensure it'll hold!!!

Afterwards at the next oil change they find that they can't get the bolt off without heroics. (Or worse...they don't do oil changes at all after that and then they put the bike up for sale...)

Just sayin' that I tighten my oil filter bolt like the good book sez. But to ease my fears of "leaks" I use aviation form-a-gasket on the threads and mating surfaces.

I think that if the bolt was bigger...

Somebody would just use a bigger/longer wrench to install the bolt and there would be a real distinct "snapping" sound when the next owner tried to remove that bolt in order to change his filter.

By comparison, a rounded off bolt ain't such a bother.

[bluesdog]

I've bought a couple of special bolt-extractor wrenches from Canadian Tire. Either the 12mm or perhaps the 11mm look like doing the job, but I won't be able to try until tomorrow afternoon. I don't care if I destroy the bolt, as I have access to spares, and even a new bolt costs only @ 12 bucks.

I'm hoping the PO did oil changes regularly, but the black crap that came out does not reassure me. Thankfully, these engines are damn near bullet-proof, and it sounded fine when I started it up. In any event, I have a good source of spare parts if necessary.

I suppose I really should email PO and ask when the last oil change happened.

The service manual recommends 3.0 litres for an oil change w/o filter, and 3.5 litres with. I never just dump all the oil in, regardless, but check the level after most of the 3rd litre is poured in, then add until the level in the sight glass is at the upper limit. Then I run the engine for a bit, and check again.

I've never managed to round off the filter bolt, (or any bolt, for that matter), on any of my bikes, and have also never, (yet), owned a torque wrench. (I'll be purchasing a couple of 'em soon!) IMO, the filter bolt is not too small. It's more likely it was engineered smaller, in order to discourage hamfisting. Proper sealing, with clean mating surfaces and good o-rings should prevent oil leaks. Never had any oil leaks on any of my bikes.

I install oil filters on my car with just my hands, and nothing leaks. The XS-11 oil filter bolt requires only 20-25 ft-lb torque. I tamp the coffee for my expresso machine with 40 lbs force! 25 ft-lbs is just good and snug -- not godzilla'd on like that russian tractor!

[DGXSER]

My theory is this, some folks are just as cheap or cheaper than me, and buy the cheap filter, which may not include the new o-rings. So they re-use the o-rings, over and over and over. When they stop working so well as keeping the oil in, they figure tighten that bad b!tch up and it'll hold!! And so it goes until you need the cheater bar to pull the bolt, if that works.

Or even worse, the kid at the shop they assign to oil changes until he learns a few things, pulls out the handy dandy impact gun and pulls the bolt off, then put sit back on with the same gun at full torque and air, not even checking the socket is on the bolt correctly.

[Larrym]

The PO Blues???

yup...

Mebbe one day someone with a guitar and a little soul will write some songs 'bout the XS1100 Blues.

"Rounded Off/Frozen Oil Filter Bolt" should be on the first album.

(PO ain't done an oil change fo' so long that the carpet done faded on the flo')


"No Money for SS Brake Lines" would be on the flip side of that single.

Yet we LOVE our bikes anyways.

[natemoen]

"No Money for SS Brake Lines" would be on the flip side of that single.

I hear ya there!

[62xs]

I'll give it a shot

I smack the bolt with a hammer.
I use only a 6 point socket never a 12 it just rounds it.
Go buy one if you don't have it. I'm cheap but the right tool for the job pays for itself every time.
If you don't have one ..... go get one.
I find 100% of the time that some dip used a 12 point socket screwed it up and is looking for some one else to blame.
Sorry for the rant but I just worked a hour to change my grand daughters oil because her mechanic boy friend rounded her oil plug.

[bluesdog]

I'm pleased to report the bolt-extractor wrench worked as advertised.



I've still not measured the old oil, but I think 1/3 to 1/2 a litre came out with the old filter, so I'm hoping I'm not looking at major engine work here. (I'll be pulling the carbs for thorough cleaning, but that's another story...)

PO writes he cannot recall when the last oil change was. Hoookay...

~~~

My 12mm socket is a 6-point. Most of my sockets are, actually. I also recently picked up a small set of 'griptite' 6-point sockets, on sale --



New oil filter o-rings are very inexpensive. I'm talking a couple of bucks here. As I said previously, even a whole new filter bolt is only about $12.00 CDN. No, the reason people over-tighten/round those bolts is because they are lazy, ignorant morons.

~~~

XS-1100 Blues. I like it!

[62xs]

have to agree

I don't know what the fascination is with tighten it as tight as you can.
I pull it snug and if it leaks I look to see why not pull it tighter there is a reason it's leaking and pulling it tighter is not the answer.

[62xs]

I should add I have one on the bench now and I could not get the drain plug out even with 150 pounds of air on my impact wrench.

[bluesdog]

Have you tried spraying it liberally with a good penetrating oil? I use 3M brand 5-way lube

It is more viscous than WD-40, so stays on the area. I let it sit for a day or so and try again.

A little heat may not hurt, either.

[Ken Talbot]

I've still not measured the old oil, but I think 1/3 to 1/2 a litre came out with the old filter

Hmm. That's about all that will ever come out if you only remove the filter cup. The rest comes out only when you remove the crankcase drain plug. I haven't read back to the start of the thread to check, but did you also remove the cranckase drain plug?

[bluesdog]

Yep. I removed the crankcase plug, draining most of the oil, prior to my initial attempts to remove the oil filter.

I'll hopefully find time to pour the used oil into a jug later today, so I'll know for sure. I'm thinking it was down a litre or so.

PO reports the bike wasn't ridden all last year, but was periodically started up and 'let run for a little while with short rides', whatever that means.

iirc, the XS-11 is prone to using a bit of oil, especially with a cold engine, as the mating surfaces need to warm up to a proper operating temp in order to create good seals. I can't recall how my '78, purchased new, behaved regarding oil consumption.

In other news, I've obtained a 'new/used' oil filter bolt, so I'll be buttoning her up, and filling the crank with fresh oil and installing a new filter.

I'll remove the carbs later this week; drain/refill the middle and final gear oil. I'll probably leave the brake check until the weather warms up

[bluesdog]

rocket science

.. and so the saga continues...

As I prepared to install the new filter, filter bolt etc, it dawned on me that something was missing, and at the same time I realized why the oil was so black, and possilbly why there was less used oil than there should have been:

First off, the washer plate was absent. Secondly I now recall that during disassembly, the spring was located above, rather than below, the filter.

So it appears PO had installed the oil fiter assembly incorrectly: that is, the filter was placed in the filter housing first, then the spring was placed on top. I suppose the washer was simply discarded sometime along the way, as it sometimes adheres to the rubber bushing on the filter.

No wonder the oil was dirty. I seem to recall that dirty oil is consumed more rapidly than clean oil, which would help explain the low oil level.

Ho hum. Another 75km drive to the Yamaha dealer to purchase a couple of washer plates.

This has to be the longest, most frustrating oil change I've ever had the displeasure of performing.

I do wonder why this simple procedure seems so difficult for some.

It goes like this: Spring > Washer plate > Filter. Otherwise the oil does not get filtered, and there isn't any point to having a pressure relief valve within the filter bolt.

It isn't rocket science, people!

[DGXSER]

So funny...if it were not so true!!!

Both of mine were the same way, no washer. What I found is that the filter gets put in maybe the right way, but without the washer, it just pushes up through the filter and the filter ends up on bottom.

But then again, if not such PO type actions, this would be a very boring site!!

[fredintoon]

'Lo Fred,
I question things like whether the hex rounded off because it was "too small".
My reasoning is that the smaller bolts/nuts usually have lower torque settings per the manual - - - -

Hi Larry,
ordinary bolts have heads that are bigger than their threads and folks are used to that and to "reefing" on them appropriately.
BUT
Oil drain plugs tend to have heads that are smaller than their thread size.
(Not always, the XS650 magnetic drain plugs are 27mm A/F)
I reckon if oil drain plugs had bigger hex sizes they'd stand up better in normal use.