oil filter

[natemoen]

That is a good point...

How much do the Wix filters cost. The fram's I've been getting cost almost $5. I didn't even know if other mnufactures still made filters for our bikes. Got part numbers for them?

4 - 6 bucks. Last time I bought a napa/wix filter it was just about 5.50 I think.

[CatatonicBug]

I didn't even know if other mnufactures still made filters for our bikes. Got part numbers for them?

autozone SP2

Napa 4933

STP: SMO-2

Wix 24933

Fram CH6002

[jetmechmarty]

Wix

If you buy your filters from NAPA or CARQUEST, their filters are supplied by WIX. Off the top of my head, I think the Carquest number is 89933. I usually buy 3 or 4 at a time as they are special order. I don't think they cost more than about $8.

[natemoen]

NAPA always have the filters in stock here. Guess it just depends on the store.

[crazy steve]

Everybody has their 'fav', but the whole idea of a filter is to reliably remove contaminants from whatever you're filtering, so wouldn't it make sense to use what does the job the best?

Another example of Fram 'quality' is the hi-po air filter they made for HD. Harley sells a 'Screaming Eagle' air cleaner for their various bikes which offered better air flow and a nice hp increase. The 'original' ones featured filter elements made by K&N to Harley size specs. But Fram wanted to break into this market, so they came out with a 'high-flow' air filter element a few years ago and talked HD into using their 'new' filter media in place of the K&N cotton filter. Performance was found to be equal, so HD made the switch (I'm sure per-unit price may have had something to do with it too).

Result? A big black eye for both Fram and Harley. It seems their 'new' media was just their 'regular' paper, made thinner/lighter so it could pass more air, but filtering performance was poorer, and worst yet, the filters literally disintegrated in use. Owners would pull the filter cover and find large hunks of the element missing; where did it go? You guessed it, it went through the motor. Surprisingly, engine damage was rare; although in the few cases there was damage, it turned into a pissing match over who was at fault and the poor owners got jerked around over warranty claims. They've since 'improved' the filter to stop this (and I don't think Fram is still the supplier, but HD is silent on this), but not surprisingly, the performance gain for these has gone down and savvy owners now avoid the SE filter like the plague...

[cywelchjr]

My take on the filter thing is that yes you want it to filter out the stuff. But I figure that if the filter gets the stuff you need to get, and filters enough to protect the parts, getting one that does it better (smaller particles) or longer just doesn't make sense unless the cost is the same. I've always used the fram filters, and generally change them with every oil change, but have not been able to find the fram filters anymore other than at cycle gear, and since it's an extra 12 miles to go there to get them, and actually costs more than the Napa filters I can pick up on my drive home from work, it just doesn't make sense for me to not use the Napa filters now. The only problem I have had was when I went to get them, they had 3 boxes that had the wrong filter in them. The 4th box had the same thing as the outside said, and they are a stock item for them, as they work for a few other models, but I'm starting to think SOFA, since switching to a GW filter will keep me in filters a LOT longer since there are so many of them out there (thinking about a GW as a second bike, maybe I can get SWMBO on one of them).

[dbeardslee]

A lot of this stuff has more to do with perception than reality. Manufacturers go to great lengths to differentiate their products and have been known to stretch the bounds of common sense in the process. I don't care what kind of filter you install, you're still not going to get all the contaminants away from the moving parts in a motor - they've already been in the motor which is how they got to the filter to begin with. What they will do is to keep that stuff from circulating through the motor again. Meanwhile blow-by past the rings and normal engine wear and tear is constantly putting more 'stuff' back into the oil, and the oil itself is experiencing thermal breakdown. Oil begins to break down in motorcycles in as soon as 1k miles, and I'd be more worried about that than the miniscule amount of contaminants that make it past a cheap oil filter. To address thermal breakdown change your oil and filter regularly and often, and chances are the filter won't be anywhere near saturated when it's removed. If it makes your 'peace of mind index' go up by using a particular brand of filter, by all means do so. But your kidding yourself if you think it makes much difference.

[natemoen]

but I\'m starting to think SOFA, since switching to a GW filter will keep me in filters a LOT longer since there are so many of them out there (thinking about a GW as a second bike, maybe I can get SWMBO on one of them).

Well right now I am having a heck of a time finding a filter to work with the SOFCA right now I am almost tempted to go back to the dog dish. I cant find something that has a deep enough dish to let me screw the filter tight enough to clear the nut and to seal. So I dont know if that is something the TC has dealt with at all or if its even an issue with the SOFA since they use different filters.

[3Phase]

The idea behind using a filter with more surface area isn't so much the extended filter change interval or the ability to catch more dirt, it's how much oil the filter can pass without too much resistance. That's one more reason you're supposed to warm up the engine before riding.

The oil filter bypass spring was specified by the nice men at Yamaha with the white lab coats for 20W-40 oil but a lot of people like to use 20W-50. No type of oil will flow easily through any filter when the oil is cold, or when it's hot for that matter.

Fortunately for the engine the oil can open the oil filter bypass check ball (with its old and thoroughly baked spring). The filter bypass will try its best to ensure that the engine will have good oil flow and pressure at all times so there won't appear to be any problem. The engine will run just fine but there may be little or no oil filtration on cold starts or at high RPM after the engine warms up and the oil pump tries to pump all of the oil out of the pan and through the filter in 1/4 second.


It's indirectly related to the oil filter media and the filter bypass check ball but there is also the internal oil pressure regulator inside the oil pump itself that was designed thirty years ago to work with 20W-40 oil. When there is too much pressure the oil goes straight back into the oil pan. That is what an oil pressure regulator is supposed to do, normally, but with cold or thick oil the regulator will start dumping oil back to the pan when it really should not do that.

The XS11 oil pump also has to supply enough oil to lubricate the transmission. The engine cylinder walls are lubricated and the pistons cooled by small holes, controlled leaks, really, in the piston rod big ends that squirt oil up underneath the pistons. It is generally not a good thing when the pressure regulator dumps thick oil back into the pan instead of sending it through the engine and transmission just when they need it the most.

[Bullet]

autozone SP2

Napa 4933

STP: SMO-2

Wix 24933

Fram CH6002

Add K&N (KN-146)

[cywelchjr]

The idea behind using a filter with more surface area isn't so much the extended filter change interval or the ability to catch more dirt, it's how much oil the filter can pass without too much resistance. That's one more reason you're supposed to warm up the engine before riding.

<-Snip-> Rest of reply removed as unneeded

Didn't remove the rest because it was drivel (it was not) but it didn't apply. Strangly, I think the only filter manufacterer I have seen say anything about flow through their filter is K&N, all the other talk about filtration only. I hadn't really thought much about the oil flowing through the filter, but I'm not thinking I'm all that worried as I tend to baby things till it's warmed up, and I don't spend a bunch of time up high (RPM wise for sure) either. And since I haven't seen 20w40 oil in years, I'm not sure what I could do about that issue, and I'm not comfortable with running 10w40 either (seems too thin for the climate around here). I'm also thinking that even the cheap filters are going to flow just fine unless they get dirty, which if you change the filter with every oil change, should be fine even with a cheap one since the manual says to change it with every other change, and you know that the engineers ere'd on the side of caution.

[ManagerMike]

WOW! I didn't mean to start a war, just trying to save everyone shipping charges on mail order filters. It just so happens that napa (wix) filters are of better than average quality (bonus) and can be acquired locally for most of us.
Buzzkill......the quality assesment applies to the 'gold' filter product line, not the silver or even lesser "economy" pruduct lines carried by napa. Also the PFI product line is the gold line, and that particular PN is not offered by napa in any of their other more "affordable" lines.

[3Phase]

I'm also thinking that even the cheap filters are going to flow just fine unless they get dirty, which if you change the filter with every oil change, should be fine even with a cheap one since the manual says to change it with every other change, and you know that the engineers ere'd on the side of caution.

Cy, filters don't flow cold thick oil well and some of them have trouble at high flow rates even with hot oil. It doesn't matter if they're expensive name-brand filters or cheap filters that's why the filter bypass was made, not because of the potential problem of some knucklehead running a dirty filter. The new 0W-20 oil probably has a lot less trouble getting through the filter even cold but I am not about to run that in my XS unless I am forced to race polar bears up in TGWN.

You and I and a some other members I have met, watched personally and ridden with always warm up the engine before riding but not everyone does that. I've also seen a enough folks that just kick the enrichener down a half click after putting on their helmet and gloves then ride off trying to be gentle for the first few miles until the engine finishes warming up to mention the problem. I'm not trying to scare anyone or tell them how to ride their bike, more of a, "Heads up, this is how it works."

The Story: I had to troubleshoot an oiling problem with my Chevy V8 engine. It wasn't the problem but to my surprise I did discover that the oil was running in partial bypass when the engine was cold and went to full bypass over 6K RPM even when the engine was warmed up. I had to remote-mount the filter and bypass plumbing to find this out and it would be a supreme PITA to do it for an XS11 but I measured how much oil went through the filter and how much oil went through the bypass. It was an eye opener and wasted lots of time that probably would have been better spent watching TV or picking lint off the dog.

I changed the oil and filter regularly and a K&N filter solved the bypass problem for the most part but I wasn't happy with that solution. Me being me, I wound up tearing into it and making some mods to the filter housing for better filtration and bypass plumbing so I didn't have to use the spendy K&N filters.

WOW! I didn't mean to start a war

Naw, no war, Mike, sorry about that! I didn't mean to hijack your thread! I was bored waiting for a friend to show up from Oregon and I climbed up on my soap box to kill some time.

I use the NAPA Wix filters, too. The NAPA parts guy couldn't find the 4933 filter at first so he searched on the number with a 'PS' prefix. He found it and told me the 'PS' in the part number means it's made for their 'Power Sport' line. I don't know where that would fall in the NAPA filter quality hierarchy, I thought it was the only one they still carried for the XS11.

If there's a better filter available with the PFI/Gold line I'll try to get one for the next filter change that's coming up real soon now!

[ManagerMike]

To the best of my knowledge the PFI line is equal to the gold line, and created to distinguish it from automotive product lines. It is for Powersport Filters. The 'I' in PFI is not described on their linecard but all line codes are three characters.